Hey FrGamble!

Quote: petroglyph

I've noticed this. Many xtians are 'godhopping' going from one church that didn't quite fit, to the next church that didn't quite fit. Never challenging the core problem of there being no god.

When you use "God" here are you talking specifically of Jesus Christ, who like God truly exists. Or are you talking about "God" in the sense we have above of the necessary first cause of all that exists? I mean in both cases you are wrong, but it makes a difference. Specifically, you are talking really about "Church-hopping" because all these people are convinced of course of Jesus Christ but are looking for a Church that they can call home. They are not changing their idea of God.

Quote: FrGamble

it very difficult to have a good discussion on the nature of God, the meaning of sacrifice.. It is usually just met with ridicule and closed mindedness.

That's because the Xtian explanation
you've given again and again makes
no sense. The concept of a god, as
you've explained it, all knowing,
all seeing, the creator of everything,
to a god like that sacrifice is not
possible. And intellectually you know
it!

But you've purposely thrown your
obviously large intellect out the window
so you can embrace the absurd. And
you wanting to convince others that
god is real is just you wanting to prove
other smart people will do what you've
done. Totally go against intellect and
logic and reason.

Quote: FrGamble

As I've mentioned we are in the midst of an important question about God's existence. I think we are getting clarity on the reality that there is a "God" as we have discussed it. I'd like to make sure we are on the same page here first and foremost. The problem with addressing Bob and his question is that it is about theology and specifically the Christian religion. If someone is not even able to use their reason to come to the clear conclusion that there is some "God" that obviously created and sustains all that exists it makes it very difficult to have a good discussion on the nature of God, the meaning of sacrifice, the life and teaching of Jesus, the fulfillment of the law, incarnation, etc. It is usually just met with ridicule and closed mindedness.

Try me. If you believe that Jesus is the son of God, and thereby God himself, please explain to me how how any 'pain' he suffered can be anything but contrived?

Quote: SOOPOO

Try me. If you believe that Jesus is the son of God, and thereby God himself, please explain to me how how any 'pain' he suffered can be anything but contrived?

First we have to remember that God became man. Jesus Christ was true God and true man. He had a human intellect, will, and feelings. He wasn't just going through the motions as He was beaten, betrayed, cried out in agony, and died. You can see this by reading the accounts of the Garden in Gethesemne and the Passion and death on the cross. I think you think that perhaps Jesus knew all the time that things would work out and this emotional, spiritual, and physical torture was just for show. No, Jesus in His humanity suffered and eventually died as we would experience it ourselves. Even more so given His natural and special relationship with God the Father and His perfect love for all of humanity. His faith and trust in God the Father throughout this ordeal was unshakable, His love for sinners and His willingness to fulfill the law and die for us never wavered, even when we insult Him, spit upon Him, and abandon Him. Yet don't mistake His trust and faith in God as some sense of knowing everything was going to be fine. He had faith that it would be, but nothing but the promise of God, His love for God, and His love for all of us sustained Him.

Quote: FrGamble

When you use "God" here are you talking specifically of Jesus Christ, who like God truly exists. Or are you talking about "God" in the sense we have above of the necessary first cause of all that exists? I mean in both cases you are wrong, but it makes a difference. Specifically, you are talking really about "Church-hopping" because all these people are convinced of course of Jesus Christ but are looking for a Church that they can call home. They are not changing their idea of God.

They change the vernacular in which they describe their new interpretations of what the bible says.

Changing the descriptions is equal to changing what "God" is, to them. It makes a difference if it was a white guy or brown woman etc. As has been said there are thousands of xtian churches, that all think their congregation, is the flock that has true understanding.

I disagree on infinite regress, which you need for your argument of 1st anything.

FRG, you say Jesus didn't know he was God? Really? That's the story you're going with? I just looked it up in the Catholic Digest and the priests writing there says that his church, the Catholic Church, believes Jesus was fully informed and fully aware of who he was by the time he was baptized by John the Baptist. So during his 3-year ministry and time on the cross, your church believes he knew he was God, and if he knew he was God, which of course he would have, there is no sacrifice. Good thing it's all just a myth, huh.

The Catholic digest says he was fully aware of his divinity at the time he was baptized.

If Jesus was God, then why did Jesus exclaim "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" during his 9th hour on the cross?

Isn't he basically asking himself?

Quote: aceofspades

If Jesus was God, then why did Jesus exclaim "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" during his 9th hour on the cross?

Isn't he basically asking himself?

Jesus was true God and true man. In His Divine knowledge or intellect He clearly knew He was God, long before His baptism. His human intellect and knowledge understood this as well, but we have to remember His human knowledge was of course limited as our own is. Christ's knowledge of His divinity was grasped through the limitations of His human intellect. His human knowledge for example was obviously not infinite. His divinity assumes human nature but does not replace it.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane in regards to my Christology classes. We are talking about some really exciting (to me) theology. Jesus Christ knew He was God in His limited human understanding but this didn't mean He understood perfectly the plan of God and how everything would unfold. His human will had to accept the will of God in just the same way we do. He had to trust in God just like we do. There was no foreknowledge of what would happen other than His trusting in the promise of God, who He knew was His loving Father, and in the fulfillment of the prophecies made about Him throughout the Old Testament.

Quote: FrGamble

Jesus was true God and true man. In His Divine knowledge or intellect He clearly knew He was God, long before His baptism. His human intellect and knowledge understood this as well, but we have to remember His human knowledge was of course limited as our own is. Christ's knowledge of His divinity was grasped through the limitations of His human intellect. His human knowledge for example was obviously not infinite. His divinity assumes human nature but does not replace it.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane in regards to my Christology classes. We are talking about some really exciting (to me) theology. Jesus Christ knew He was God in His limited human understanding but this didn't mean He understood perfectly the plan of God and how everything would unfold. His human will had to accept the will of God in just the same way we do. He had to trust in God just like we do. There was no foreknowledge of what would happen other than His trusting in the promise of God, who He knew was His loving Father, and in the fulfillment of the prophecies made about Him throughout the Old Testament.

How can he have the knowledge he is God but then have "limited" knowledge?

How can he not understand God's plan? Did he not read the Old Testament?

Padre - you are bending your logic with greater force than a black hole bends light

Quote: aceofspades

How can he have the knowledge he is God but then have "limited" knowledge?

Because the human intellect is limited.

Quote:

How can he not understand God's plan? Did he not read the Old Testament?

He completely understood God's plan through the Old Testament and trusted in it fully.

I don't quite see any bending of logic here.