1 million refugees in Germany

Quote: Aussie

On other threads you had admitted never having been on a widebody aircraft so it's safe to assume you haven't been much further afield than Canada or Mexica ect. You certainly haven't ever set foot in any country with a large or majority Muslim population. It's pretty obvious where your opinion on the subject should be discarded.

Why? Are you saying you have to travel to one to know they are major human rights abusers?

Seriously, I have met several people who were nearly killed in such countries for not being muslim. I can read about women getting whipped and stoned for the crime of BEING raped. Along with all the rest.

Study some history with an open mind. I would suggest starting with where when islam was founded people were converted by given the choice to believe or die by the sword. Unless they were Christian or Jewish, in which cast they got a third choice of giving muslims half of all they owned.

Along the way, read about the Barbary Pirates enslaving ships passing in international waters, the first foreign war for the USA.

If you like, I will see if I can find the woman who works with my brother who spent 6 months in a Saudi prison for being with a male not her husband in public. Saudi Jails even for women are not the hotel you see on "Orange is the New Black" but rather places you spend 24/7 in bright lit small cells.

Need I go on?

Quote: AZDuffman

Why? Are you saying you have to travel to one to know they are major human rights abusers?

Seriously, I have met several people who were nearly killed in such countries for not being muslim. I can read about women getting whipped and stoned for the crime of BEING raped. Along with all the rest.

Study some history with an open mind. I would suggest starting with where when islam was founded people were converted by given the choice to believe or die by the sword. Unless they were Christian or Jewish, in which cast they got a third choice of giving muslims half of all they owned.

Along the way, read about the Barbary Pirates enslaving ships passing in international waters, the first foreign war for the USA.

If you like, I will see if I can find the woman who works with my brother who spent 6 months in a Saudi prison for being with a male not her husband in public. Saudi Jails even for women are not the hotel you see on "Orange is the New Black" but rather places you spend 24/7 in bright lit small cells.

Need I go on?

Well yes, getting a first hand view IS much more likely to give you an accurate picture of reality than whatever internet sites you visit. No one is denying that some (perhaps even most) of the countries you are talking about are indeed the hell holes you describe (albeit through second or third hand accounts) but they aren't all like that, not by a long shot. When you say they are all like that it just highlites how utterly clueless you are on the subject.

Quote: Aussie

Well yes, getting a first hand view IS much more likely to give you an accurate picture of reality than whatever internet sites you visit. No one is denying that some (perhaps even most) of the countries you are talking about are indeed the hell holes you describe (albeit through second or third hand accounts) but they aren't all like that, not by a long shot. When you say they are all like that it just highlites how utterly clueless you are on the subject.

Clueless? Hardly. You want to point out the outlier countries, feel free. Give some examples of wonderful, free muslim countries. Bahrain is possibly one. So lets hear it. Some great, healthy muslim socities living in freedom and peace with neighboring societies.

Do remember my porch standard thought. If 10 guys jump off my back, 2 story porch and 9 break their leg but one is fine, I will be warning you that should you jump you are going to break your leg.

Ball in your court.

Quote: AZDuffman

Clueless? Hardly. You want to point out the outlier countries, feel free. Give some examples of wonderful, free muslim countries. Bahrain is possibly one. So lets hear it. Some great, healthy muslim socities living in freedom and peace with neighboring societies.

Do remember my porch standard thought. If 10 guys jump off my back, 2 story porch and 9 break their leg but one is fine, I will be warning you that should you jump you are going to break your leg.

Ball in your court.

Indonesia & Malaysia for starters. Although you will probably provide some comedy relief and claim they are hell holes too.

Plenty of others with large populations interacting peacefully with other faiths, I'm sure a guy with your skills on google will be able to find them. And yes, clueless is the perfect description for someone who sits huddled up in their cave in fear. Let me know when you get a passport and start to explore the world. If it ever happens I'll be more than happy to remove your opinion from the trash can where it currently rightfully belongs.

Quote: Aussie

Indonesia & Malaysia for starters. Although you will probably provide some comedy relief and claim they are hell holes too.

Indonesia, ranked 99th most free country in the world and "mostly unfree."
Malaysia 29 and actually mostly free. USA is 11th.

Ranked 158 and 79 per capita income with Malaysia making $17,500 per year, but Indonesia just $5,200.

Malaysia improving, Indonesia not at all a great place. Like I said, there are outliers. Bur again, most muslim societies are just awful.

Quote:

Plenty of others with large populations interacting peacefully with other faiths, I'm sure a guy with your skills on google will be able to find them. And yes, clueless is the perfect description for someone who sits huddled up in their cave in fear. Let me know when you get a passport and start to explore the world. If it ever happens I'll be more than happy to remove your opinion from the trash can where it currently rightfully belongs.

I am not sitting in a cave in fear, I am looking at what is going on in reality. I've had a passport for 20 years now, probably due to renew actually. I'll pass on your offer, however. Enjoy waking up and wondering how things went bad 30 years from now. I won't be the one wondering why my panties are on my head......

I do not see what America is doing to foster the surrender of our society to Muslims other than allow all people to worship as they choose, consistent with the most fundamental principles upon which our republic was founded. If you are talking about out of control emigration, then that's a different discussion from the point I have been trying to make and one that we may have more agreement on than you would think.

Quote: AZDuffman

Islam does not live peacefully with any other culture and never has.

It is this statement that I am refuting, because I believe it's crucially important. One example of Muslims living peacefully with other cultures is sufficient to refute the statement. I did not merely list some nice Muslims that I know. I illustrated that the Austin Texas Muslim community is at peace with the rest of us and they don't isolate themselves in Mosques, they live work and attend school along side the rest of us. From other posts, I infer that you now say you really meant your statement to apply to the overwhelming majority of the Muslim populations and view an example as an outlier and too "micro".

Let's talk Macro, then. Aussie mentioned some countries that contradict your observation. I have no familiarity with Indonesia, but I have spent time in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Malaysia is 61% Muslim; Islam is the official religion of the country. The rights of not Muslims are guaranteed by the constitution. They have significant populations of Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and non-religious people in all strata of society. My industry contracts with factories there and I have spent time time working with some very sharp engineers and managers, male and female, Muslim and non-Muslim. There are Muslim and Non-Muslim women at high level of management bossing Muslim and non-Muslim men and women. I don't hold up Malaysia as some kind of ideal, they certainly have their problems (the idea of an official religion stings my American nostrils). However, if Islam must subvert and dominate how can it be that a country of 61% Muslims can respect the rights of minorities?

But Malaysia is not typical you say, you are referring to the overwhelming majority of Muslims in oppressive middle east countries. 80% of the worlds 1.6 billion Muslims do not live in the Middle East- North Africa region. 60% of Muslims live in countries where they are the minority.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

The radical Muslim societies of the Middle East and North Africa are clearly a threat to the civilized world, but we need the help of allied Muslim countries to fight them. If we begin to be viewed as being at war with Islam, these oppressive factions will become more powerful than you can imagine.

Quote: JimRockford

I do not see what America is doing to foster the surrender of our society to Muslims other than allow all people to worship as they choose, consistent with the most fundamental principles upon which our republic was founded. If you are talking about out of control emigration, then that's a different discussion from the point I have been trying to make and one that we may have more agreement on than you would think.

I said it quite clearly before. More and more muslim immigration in a society causes the problem, Europe currently being an example. It is not about "worship as they chose." It is about areas first ghettoized then become no-go zones then become haven for radicals. I will go back to my perfect example. Indian tribes once ruled North America. The people who came mostly came in peace. Look what eventually happened? Within 250 years all Indian tribes were confined to horrible reservations.

When an incompatible society enters a larger society it is at first controlled as it is too small. Then it ghettoizes, keeping to their own neighborhoods. Later, struggle will happen. Look at history. Look at the demands of muslims on college campuses. Look at the attacks on women in Europe. Look at the attacks here and there. The takeover is happening before your eyes.

As to common positions on emigration, lets talk.

Quote:

Let's talk Macro, then. Aussie mentioned some countries that contradict your observation. I have no familiarity with Indonesia, but I have spent time in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Malaysia is 61% Muslim; Islam is the official religion of the country. The rights of not Muslims are guaranteed by the constitution. They have significant populations of Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and non-religious people in all strata of society. My industry contracts with factories there and I have spent time time working with some very sharp engineers and managers, male and female, Muslim and non-Muslim. There are Muslim and Non-Muslim women at high level of management bossing Muslim and non-Muslim men and women. I don't hold up Malaysia as some kind of ideal, they certainly have their problems (the idea of an official religion stings my American nostrils). However, if Islam must subvert and dominate how can it be that a country of 61% Muslims can respect the rights of minorities?

How can it be? Because as I said there are always outliers. People like to think that they will be the exception.

Quote:

The radical Muslim societies of the Middle East and North Africa are clearly a threat to the civilized world, but we need the help of allied Muslim countries to fight them. If we begin to be viewed as being at war with Islam, these oppressive factions will become more powerful than you can imagine.

We will not get the help of the other muslim countries. If we do, it will not be by ignoring the problem of the more radical areas. And it will for sure not be by importing people from the radical areas by the boatload. Currently we seem to be letting them in to prove we are not "islamaphobes." That is just bad policy.

What I do not get is there are so many on the left who break into hives at the mention of God, Christianity, or Judaism but they defend islam to the bitter end.

Again I am treating the current population of Muslims separate from future problems caused by an influx of refugees. Maybe that is inconsistent with the thread title. I am primarily responding to your statement that Islam does not and never has lived peacefully with other cultures (later modified to apply to the overwhelming majority of Muslims). The statement implies something must be done about the current population of US Muslims. I've only mentioned examples about which I have first hand knowledge and I don't accept that they are outliers. Either 61% of Malaysians practice Islam or they don't. It's 37 million people, not a statistical fluke. I have also showed data that the overwhelming majority of Muslims don't live in the troubled middle east north Africa region.

Regarding immigration other than refugees, I believe that the US legally admits too many. The distribution is also skewed to a low skill le Ivel, resulting in a net negative effect on our economy and an unhealthy increase in our population in urban centers. We need a clearer plan to admit fewer people and increase the skill requirement. On the other hand I believe that the US should participate in resettling refugees, but we need to be careful that we don't overload the resources of the resettlement program. If we admit too many without viable job skills and without adequate resettlement effort, the ghetoization/ disenfranchisement problem that you describe will result. However I am not able to find any credible evidence that the so called Europe no-go zones actually exist. I see non-credible tabloid sources; I see fox news retracted and apologized for their story on them.

Oh and I am not a liberal but I will defend freedom of religion for any group to the bitter end.

Quote: JimRockford

Again I am treating the current population of Muslims separate from future problems caused by an influx of refugees. Maybe that is inconsistent with the thread title. I am primarily responding to your statement that Islam does not and never has lived peacefully with other cultures (later modified to apply to the overwhelming majority of Muslims). The statement implies something must be done about the current population of US Muslims. I've only mentioned examples about which I have first hand knowledge and I don't accept that they are outliers. Either 61% of Malaysians practice Islam or they don't. It's 37 million people, not a statistical fluke. I have also showed data that the overwhelming majority of Muslims don't live in the troubled middle east north Africa region.

I have to keep going over this. Indonesia has no real border nations. Muslims fight with Christians in the north and south. They fight with Hindus in the east. They fight with Israel. This same pattern has followed for over 1,000 years, so no reason to think it will change. Individual muslims do not matter, it is the nature of islam and the system that matters.

Quote:

Regarding immigration other than refugees, I believe that the US legally admits too many. The distribution is also skewed to a low skill le Ivel, resulting in a net negative effect on our economy and an unhealthy increase in our population in urban centers. We need a clearer plan to admit fewer people and increase the skill requirement. On the other hand I believe that the US should participate in resettling refugees, but we need to be careful that we don't overload the resources of the resettlement program. If we admit too many without viable job skills and without adequate resettlement effort, the ghetoization/ disenfranchisement problem that you describe will result. However I am not able to find any credible evidence that the so called Europe no-go zones actually exist. I see non-credible tabloid sources; I see fox news retracted and apologized for their story on them.

Oh and I am not a liberal but I will defend freedom of religion for any group to the bitter end.

I have seen and heard enough about the European no-go zones to believe they exist. Of course the mayor of Paris will insist they do not. FNC can retract and apologize if they like, I am not financially beholden to said countries. The folks who insist they are not there will not be satisfied unless they see a "MUSLIMS ONLY BEYOND THIS POINT" sign on a street corner.

As to immigration, the USA has much backwards. You want to encourage people with skills and discourage people without. We do the opposite, handing out welfare to any illegal while making people who might come and start a business jump thru hoop after hoop. This is not to say the HB-1 program is not filled with abuse. We see what the rat company did down in Orlando. I knew one that was handed out for no good reason, and there have to be many like that.

I thought I once saw where OZ had a deal where you could "buy" admission by starting a qualifying business, invest so much and hire so many and they were not alone. Given how poorly the USA treats business owners that might not work.

See AZ, I told you we would kind of agree on something. Merry Christmas