Simple question?

I don't think your argument leads to an illusion of free will. Why do you think knowledge of something is the same as forcing action or removing free will? Can I know you will do something without infringing on your freedom to do it?

Quote: FrGamble

Nowhere do you ask if it would be okay to take away someone's free will, it is not.

You've made it clear that is the only way for the all powerful Jehovah/Jesus to stop evil. If so, then why would you pray to him/them for help, knowing what the options are?

But I grant you it's an easy out for yourself: "God" won't help you because it's better for you in the long term to suffer and die.

There is only one way to permit people to truly love and that is allowing us freedom. It is true that the only way to eliminate all evil from the world is to take away our freedom. It sounds like neither of us is for this solution. There are of course many other ways in specific moments when God could intervene. There is nothing wrong with asking for that as long as we don't in our hubris and limited understanding think that what we want to happen is ultimately the best for us and for our world in the present or in the future.

Quote: FrGamble

as long as we don't in our hubris and limited understanding think that what we want to happen is ultimately the best for us and for our world in the present or in the future.

In other words, don't be self sufficient, always
rely on being told what to do by your religion,
it always knows best. What's amazing is people
still buy this crap in the modern age. Religion
is just a bunch of men, a god has nothing
to do with it. And these men want what's best
for them, not for you. They want what's best
for the continuation of their organization.
It's a scam, don't fall for it.

Quote: FrGamble

It is true that the only way to eliminate all evil from the world is to take away our freedom.

If someone is going to shoot you, and I jump on them and prevent it, carefully and in detail explain to me how I interfered with that person's free will.

In other words: you're blinded by your faith, at best.

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There are of course many other ways in specific moments when God could intervene.

See above. Is there only one way or are there many ways?

It's getting tiresome to try to straighten your Newspeak off.

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think your argument leads to an illusion of free will. Why do you think knowledge of something is the same as forcing action or removing free will? Can I know you will do something without infringing on your freedom to do it?

It's pretty simple, really.

Quote from Wikipedia: "Free Will is the ability to choose between different courses of action."

If you or god know with absolute certainty what course of action someone will take, then there is only one possible course of action.

If there is only one possible course of action, then you don't have the ability to choose between different courses of action.

You might think you are choosing between different courses of action, this is the illusion - there is only one possible course of action that you can take, and it is already known that you will choose it, so you really have no choice at all.

Quote: FrGamble

Can I know you will do something without infringing on your freedom to do it?

Remember Jesus telling Peter he would deny him in the future? Or that one of the disciples (Judas) would betray him?

What that says to me, is if god were to reveal your day for tomorrow, no matter how hard you tried you couldn't do anything else.

If you knew what god knows for tomorrow, you'd find you're led around by the nose.

There's the illusion.

Quote: Nareed

If someone is going to shoot you, and I jump on them and prevent it, carefully and in detail explain to me how I interfered with that person's free will.

Congratulations you stopped that person from shooting me. However, what if he comes back tomorrow when you are not there. There are many ways to stop individual actions of evil but the only sure way to eliminate it for good is to take away free will and correct me if I am wrong but both of us are against that option.

Quote: rxwine

There's the illusion.

How is it an illusion if you are not affected in any way at all by my foreknowledge? You had free options to choose whatever you wanted.

What would you say if I told you I knew exactly what you were going to write in your next post? Word for word and punctuation I knew it. How does this effect your freedom to write whatever you want?

Quote: FrGamble

Congratulations you stopped that person from shooting me.

We're not talking about the wisdom of the act, you know ;)

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However, what if he comes back tomorrow when you are not there.

What if you call the police and take precautions, assuming he fled.

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There are many ways to stop individual actions of evil but the only sure way to eliminate it for good is to take away free will

Wouldn't an all-powerful being be able to stop them all piecemeal at his leisure? Do you even know what "all-powerful" means?

Further, you cannot "take away" someone's free will except by killing them. It's an inherent part of every human being, and many other lesser animals.