Simple question?

Quote: Nareed

Wouldn't an all-powerful being be able to stop them all piecemeal at his leisure? Do you even know what "all-powerful" means?

I do. Do you even know what all knowing and eternal means?

Quote:

Further, you cannot "take away" someone's free will except by killing them. It's an inherent part of every human being, and many other lesser animals.

Exactly my point. You would take away our humanity if you took away our free will.

All this talk about 'free will', when it
might be an illusion. Read about it,
more and more experts are agreeing
that there is no real free will, our
brains make decisions based not
on careful considerations, but on
a thousand things it's learned on
how to react in certain situations.
We think we're making a choice
when the choice was made by us
long before the situation even
occurred.

Quote: FrGamble

How is it an illusion if you are not affected in any way at all by my foreknowledge? You had free options to choose whatever you wanted.

What would you say if I told you I knew exactly what you were going to write in your next post? Word for word and punctuation I knew it. How does this effect your freedom to write whatever you want?

Because in this case you aren't free to write whatever you want. You are going to write word for word including punctuation exactly what you said.

If god knows everything, then everything you do is going to play out exactly like he saw it and you have no way to change it.

Free will and predestination are in a fundamental conflict with each-other. An all-knowing god and predestination go hand in hand.

Quote: FrGamble

What would you say if I told you I knew exactly what you were going to write in your next post? Word for word and punctuation I knew it. How does this effect your freedom to write whatever you want?

You say I have free will. Okay, I should be able to prove it under these conditions. Assuming each time you have access to my full life script.

How would I prove it? Show me how.

Quote: FrGamble

I do. Do you even know what all knowing and eternal means?

I don't think you do.

Quote:

Exactly my point. You would take away our humanity if you took away our free will.

Your point is that it can be "taken away." My point is that this is not possible.

Quote: Evenbob

All this talk about 'free will', when it
might be an illusion. Read about it,
more and more experts are agreeing
that there is no real free will, our
brains make decisions based not
on careful considerations, but on
a thousand things it's learned on
how to react in certain situations.
We think we're making a choice
when the choice was made by us
long before the situation even
occurred.

That is why millions of people buy things they don't want with money they don't have.

There may be some with free will, but it is certainly not common. We are conditioned.

I forget who [at wov] mentioned he stood up right as the national anthem started, and everyone else stands up in the next few seconds and obligingly place their hands over their hearts. He didn't do it on purpose, I think he just happened to be getting change out of his pocket or something?

People don't want to be free, it's way to much work.

Quote: Dalex64

Because in this case you aren't free to write whatever you want. You are going to write word for word including punctuation exactly what you said.

If god knows everything, then everything you do is going to play out exactly like he saw it and you have no way to change it.

Free will and predestination are in a fundamental conflict with each-other. An all-knowing god and predestination go hand in hand.

How did my knowing that you were going to write this effect your freedom to write it? When you were writing it were you not free to write whatever it was that you wanted?

As Nareed would ask, do you know what eternal means? To me it means outside of time. God sees the past, present, and future as one. He knows how things are going to play out but I still think you haven't shown how this effects our true free will. Another way to look at it is if I have a high enough vantage point I can see where people are going and know what awaits them around the bend that they can't see. This is because of my higher vantage point or my privileged knowledge, but you who are walking on the path are free to keep going along as you please.

Free will and something called "double predestination" are in a fundamental conflict with each-other. This is a protestant concept, not accepted by ever protestant for sure, that believes God has destined some people for Heaven and others for Hell. There is nothing they can do about it. This is not Biblical and doesn't make any sense for a God who desires that all be saved and share in the Blessed life of Heaven.

Quote: Evenbob

All this talk about 'free will', when it
might be an illusion. Read about it,
more and more experts are agreeing
that there is no real free will, our
brains make decisions based not
on careful considerations, but on
a thousand things it's learned on
how to react in certain situations.
We think we're making a choice
when the choice was made by us
long before the situation even
occurred.

As an atheist you have already destroyed objective moral truths and the true notions of good and evil. Now you want to destroy morality all together. If what you are saying is true how could we consider anyone culpable for the choices they make?

Quote: Nareed

I don't think you do.

Okay maybe we need to define our terms. All-knowing and eternal means that God sees the past, present, and future at the same time. There are no tenses for Him. He also understands that the actions of today can have effects that may be realized years, decades, heck even millennium later that we would never know of because we are neither eternal or all-knowing.

Quote:

Your point is that it can be "taken away." My point is that this is not possible.

Maybe you also don't understand all-powerful?

Quote: FrGamble

God sees the past, present, and future as one.

Well let's bring Hitler into it!

Let's assume for the sake of argument Hitler ended up in Hell.

So, did god know Hitler was going to Hell before Hitler was born?

If god didn't, or god got it wrong that's one problem with god's omniscience.

If he did, what was the point bringing a condemned being into existence to send him to Hell? If so, some people are here just to be sent to Hell. Doesn't sound much like a loving god, just a manipulator.