Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

You also fail to see the order present in the random nature of things.

You have to be careful with terminology here,
and not confuse order with structure.

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Random is not the opposite of God

Certainly it is. Christians claim god created
everything around us, for us. They exclaim,
look at the sunset god painted for us! Or,
look at the spring flowers god has grown
for us. I know this, I have a Christian family.

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You say on one hand that people feel powerless so they create an all-powerful God to make them feel not so powerless. It would seem to me that this would make one feel even more powerless.

Not at all. You now have hope of changing
what you don't like, or getting what you
want. You've been told an all powerful god
will hear your prayers and maybe answer them.
This gives you a feeling of power, how would
it not. My sister in law didn't create the god
she prays to, somebody else did long ago.
She just goes along with it because she
doesn't know any better.

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By this do you mean the correct version of prayer? Why don't you deal with this type of prayer

Because the vast majority of people use
prayer as gods vending machine, that's
why they like it so much. Just ask and
you'll receive, Jesus himself says it in
the NT. They've all read it, it's plain as
day. If you told my sister in law not to
pray when she bought a lottery ticket
she'd think you were daft.

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No, it is hard to comprehend because it is non sensical, illogical, and impossible. .

Naw. The universe has been here forever,
the small part of it we're in, the big bang
part, has happened countless times. And
will happen countless more times. Shakespeare
said:

'All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players'

That's a really good way of putting it. We play
different parts for eternity. But some of us
get so attached to our current part that we
give it too much importance. We feel we need
to be rewarded for our actions after the part
has ended. That's fine.

Quote: Evenbob

You have to be careful with terminology here,
and not confuse order with structure.

It can get confusing. We also have to be careful not to confuse our use of random. We of course don't mean a forest is beautiful because it can have anything randomly placed within it. We mean that the branches and streams and leaves and animals, etc. all take on a random expression based on underlying natural laws.

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Certainly it is. Christians claim god created
everything around us, for us. They exclaim,
look at the sunset god painted for us!

He did create everything around us, just because you perceive it as random doesn't make it less beautiful or make it not created. Think of the example of good old Bob Ross painting a landscape. The finished product looks beautiful and random.

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Naw. The universe has been here forever,
the small part of it we're in, the big bang
part, has happened countless times.

How can you honestly say this? Also none of this solves your dilemma of the impossibility of an eternal universe. In fact you have complicated things for yourself. If you can't explain how motion or one Big Bang happened then why in the world would you posit countless Big Bangs?

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'All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players'

That's a really good way of putting it. We play
different parts for eternity. But some of us
get so attached to our current part that we
give it too much importance. We feel we need
to be rewarded for our actions after the part
has ended. That's fine.

I agree with some of what you say here but it sounds different than the person also claiming I make life into a Milton Bradley game. Do you not feel the injustice and torture of having a game or a play go one forever - have you never played Monopoly or watched some three hour play you wish would end. Your belief system dooms us to play for eternity an unfair and tortuous game, no thanks I would rather be an atheist.

Quote: FrGamble

We of course don't mean a forest is beautiful because

It's random because everything in it
happened randomly. From the formation
of the planet, to every mutation that
came afterwards, it was unplanned and
unorchestrated. And continues to mutate
and grow and change. When an acorn
hits the ground, it may grow into a
tree right there. Or it may get picked
up by a bird and dropped 50 yards
away. It's random, unplanned. It might
grow, probably not.

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He did create everything around us

When you state an opinion or a belief
as a fact, that doesn't make it a fact.
That's why science was born, for this
very reason. To separate belief from
fact. So far science has found nothing
to back up your belief.

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How can you honestly say this?

I'm certainly not alone in this. The Hindu
upanishads say the universe has been
reborn more times than the grains of
sand on all the beaches in the world.
That's it's way of saying the universe
has always been here. It makes common
sense, certainly more sense than a silly
concocted ego centered sin and reward
story where we are the center of everything.

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Your belief system dooms us to play for eternity an unfair and tortuous game.

You create your own reality, minute to minute,
day to day. You became a priest thru a lot of
work and desire to achieve your goal. You
created the reality you're in. Why do you think
it's ends there. If we do our best with what
we're born with, if we all did that, what would
the world look like. But we don't, most people
go along for the ride and look what we get.
A world full of misery created by those who
grabbed the bull by the horns and did what
you did, but for different reasons. At any given
moment every person has the ability to change
what they can change, but how many do. The
status quo is too easy to maintain.

If I could rewrite the US Constitution, I would still allow freedom of religion, but I would require all gods to show up and register with the Federal government in person.

You would not be recognized otherwise. That's a pretty small requirement since gods generally are touted as extremely powerful.

That would take care of the nonsense with the 3 big religions. I suppose Buddhism would probably qualify -- seems okay with me.

I wish the founders had thought of that.

Quote: rxwine

If I could rewrite the US Constitution, I would still allow freedom of religion, but I would require all gods to show up and register with the Federal government in person.

You would not be recognized otherwise. That's a pretty small requirement since gods generally are touted as extremely powerful.

That would take care of the nonsense with the 3 big religions. I suppose Buddhism would probably qualify -- seems okay with me.

I wish the founders had thought of that.

What are you talking about? Freedom of religion means the state can't tell you what religion you must practice. It restricts government, not the people. This isn't N. Korea you know.

You can practice any religion as long as your god(s) if you have any, register in person.

Are you saying your god can't even do that?

Then I say you're worshiping baloney. No tax exemptions, no special protections.

Quote: rxwine

If I could rewrite the US Constitution, I would still allow freedom of religion, but I would require all gods to show up and register with the Federal government in person.

I'd pay money to see that :)

But I think we could advance religious freedom a great deal simply by a small addendum to the First Amendment thus:

NOTE: Christianity is not the only religion covered by this amendment.

Quote: rxwine

You can practice any religion as long as your god(s) if you have any, register in person.

Are you saying your god can't even do that?

He has already sent His Son and many of His closest friends and coworkers. That is not enough?

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Then I say you're worshiping baloney. No tax exemptions, no special protections.

Hopefully you don't think tax exemptions and the reverence due religion is just because it is religious or believes in God. But are you really saying I would be worshiping nothing because God doesn't make Himself perfectly visible and present? I've asked you to try prayer and it seems like you won't. Maybe you should think a little bit more about who God is and what is real. The all powerful source and cause of all existence doesn't need to sign anything for you to know he is more real and present than you and everything else combined.

Quote: FrGamble

He has already sent His Son and many of His closest friends and coworkers. That is not enough?

For a bureaucracy? Nothing is ever enough.

You're old enough to know this by now :)

Quote: FrGamble

The all powerful source and cause of all existence doesn't need to sign anything for you to know he is more real and present than you and everything else combined.

I'm being pretty reasonable. Don't even think we need to have God pay for his ID.

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Maybe you should think a little bit more about who God is and what is real.

You're the one selling paradise to billions sight unseen.