Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

The rules for how electrons behaved or how gravity works was established before anything could "randomly" happen.

Or so you think. You'll say anything to
get out of the fact that a forest is
beautiful because it happened randomly.
Random is the opposite of god. In
order for your paradigm to exist,
randomness has to be beaten back
in every instance.

Quote:

If this was true, which it is not, it goes directly in the face of what you said earlier. You said that God was made up to feel powerful and be in control.

Exactly so. People feel powerless so they
invent an all powerful god. They then
pray to the god so they don't feel
powerless anymore. Even though
their god is imaginary, it makes them
feel proactive.

Quote:

Praying is about connecting to God - news flash - He already knows what we need. He gives us the inspiration and help we need to work for the change in ourselves and how best to serve others.

That's the lofty version of prayer. In
truth, people are very selfish when
they pray, it's all about me me me.
Feeling powerless and asking god
for something.

What Do Americans Pray For? Themselves. And Maybe a Sports Team

(RNS) When Americans aren’t busy praying for themselves or their own needs — and most of them are — many are seeking divine intervention on behalf of a favorite sports team or the golden ticket in the lottery, according to a new survey.

http://religionnews.com/2014/10/01/americans-pray-maybe-sports-team/

Quote:

The chances of the universe coming from nothing without a cause is of course zero percent.

It didn't come from nothing, it's been
here forever. It's hard to comprehend
because we view ourselves as finite
beings. So we invent gods and goddesses
to explain it to us. I gives us something
to do.

Quote: FrGamble

Pretty much the same thing except it is guided by God so that it can actually reasonably happen. No matter how long you have even the creation of a simple organism is near impossible much less the human person. I know you have heard the analogies before: human life coming to be by random chance and variation is like a putting a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters and having them accidently recreate the works of Shakespeare

I believe the monkeys and Shakespeare is possible. No reason not to believe it under the right conditions.

Quote:

You also need to wrestle with consciousness and reason. How do non material traits that we posses rise from simple material variations? Your process doesn't work without God.

Amazing what we already did with computer language based on 1s and Os.

I am not positively sure Descartes "I think therefore I am" refutes even the possibility that consciousness is a series of extremely complex algorithms powered by a quantum based biological computer (our brain). Throw in some randomness and that gives the brain the power to break any appearance of rigid decision making.

What happens if we create an AI which insists it is just as real a being as we are? Will it really be convinced that being "unplugged" makes it less real?
I wouldn't be. No more than when an anesthesiologist puts one under general anesthesia. Deep enough, you don't feel dead, but unplugged for awhile. No sense of time when you wake up. Even though you know a scheduled hour or two has passed, it literally feels timeless. Not like sleep.

Quote: FrGamble

You also need to wrestle with consciousness and reason. How do non material traits that we posses rise from simple material variations? Your process doesn't work without God.

You're doing exactly what your church
has done for 1500 years. Bypass any
possible explanation and go right to
giving god the credit or the blame.
God should always be at the bottom
of any list of reasons for something.
At the rock bottom, when every other
avenue has been completely exhausted.
You and the Church have god at the
very top. But he's your brand, what would
we expect.

Whatayouknow...there is an invisible hand at work.

there's actually some relevant stuff particular to this discussion on that story.

Quote: Evenbob

God should always be at the bottom
of any list of reasons for something.
.

Agreed. Supernatural conclusions should be last on the list of causes.

Glad to see the Bishops still know how to blackmail like the perverse bastards they are.

http://www.reuters.com/article/uk-vatican-macdonalds-idUSKBN1511O8

The Bishops collect 31k a month from McDonalds as rent and complain the space should be better used as shelter for the homeless.

Quote: rxwine

Agreed. Supernatural conclusions should be last on the list of causes.

FrG goes into every argument that a supernatural
cause, namely his god, is responsible for everything
and it's our job to prove he's not.

He's got it backwards. He's making the assertion, so
it's his job to prove it IS his god doing everything
he claims. So far on the proof list, he has nothing.
And because there is no god, 'nothing' will not be
improved upon any time soon.

Quote: Evenbob

Or so you think. You'll say anything to
get out of the fact that a forest is
beautiful because it happened randomly.

I do think a forest is beautiful. You should watch some Bob Ross painting shows. Let's put a happy little tree here and a little brook running over here. When he is done it is beautiful and reflects what you see as random. Really it is created with a purpose.

You also fail to see the order present in the random nature of things. All the trees have trunks and branches and roots. It wouldn't be beautiful if some of the trees were upside down or the colors were purple with pink pokadots. It is the order that underlies the random placement and colors that make it so beautiful.

Quote:

Random is the opposite of god. In
order for your paradigm to exist,
randomness has to be beaten back
in every instance.

Random is not the opposite of God, I don't know where you get this idea or why you think it. I appreciate and love the random nature of nature that God gives to us. However, this randomness follows strict rules.

Quote:

Exactly so. People feel powerless so they
invent an all powerful god. They then
pray to the god so they don't feel
powerless anymore.

again, when you have a consistent thought on this I will be happy to answer you. You say on one hand that people feel powerless so they create an all-powerful God to make them feel not so powerless. It would seem to me that this would make one feel even more powerless. I don't think you are making much sense here and grasping for straws.

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That's the lofty version of prayer.

By this do you mean the correct version of prayer? Why don't you deal with this type of prayer in your concerns rather than the corrupted selfish version you and I could both rail against?

Quote:

It didn't come from nothing, it's been
here forever. It's hard to comprehend
because we view ourselves as finite
beings.

No, it is hard to comprehend because it is non sensical, illogical, and impossible. Please remember if something is moving or changing than it had to have something to cause that movement. You can't say this process is eternal without a first mover or you run into an infinite regress. It is not at all hard to comprehend that if something is moving it has been acted upon by something. This is obvious. What you are suggesting is a supernatural concept for something simply logical and as has been said a couple of times our first choice should not be something supernatural as the answer.

Quote: rxwine

I believe the monkeys and Shakespeare is possible.

This takes more faith than I have for sure and more faith than I think a reasonable person should have.

Quote: Evenbob

You're doing exactly what your church
has done for 1500 years. Bypass any
possible explanation and go right to
giving god the credit or the blame.
God should always be at the bottom
of any list of reasons for something.

You really know nothing of theological and philosophical studies do you? The Church always looks for natural explanations first, only when those cannot be the answer should we turn to the supernatural. You positing an eternal material universe without any logical or scientific evidence to claim such a ridiculous notion is the jumping to supernatural reasons. Make sure to turn your arguements on yourself before you wrongly try to attribte them to someone else.