Simple question?

Oh by the way here's the answer and what should be the last word on the subject. Humankind has been separated from God. We are "saved" by His atonement on the cross and the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God but also a person like we too are persons. I suspect that's where the personal savior idea comes from. I don't get it myself.

Quote: pew

We are "saved" by His atonement on the cross .

Saved from what, sin doesn't exist and you
can't prove it does. Sin is a murky concept
at best, which is why FrG has yet to tell us
what it really is. The dictionary says sin
is disobeying gods rules and pissing him
off. There is no god, so I guess sin can be
anything you want it to be.

Here are some extensive articles about doctrines of salvation in multiple religions and in Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soteriology
https://bible.org/seriespage/7-soteriology-salvation

Quote: Evenbob

Saved from what, sin doesn't exist and you
can't prove it does. Sin is a murky concept
at best, which is why FrG has yet to tell us
what it really is. The dictionary says sin
is disobeying gods rules and pissing him
off. There is no god, so I guess sin can be
anything you want it to be.

We are saved from separation from God.

Quote: Evenbob

Saved from what, sin doesn't exist and you
can't prove it does. Sin is a murky concept
at best, which is why FrG has yet to tell us
what it really is. The dictionary says sin
is disobeying gods rules and pissing him
off. There is no god, so I guess sin can be
anything you want it to be.

Okay I admit that I fall victim to the desire to one up someone at times like pew has convicted me of and I think this can hurt the ability of others to admit they are wrong and therefore hurts the dialogue and conversation. The above post Evenbob is what I am trying to help you realize is wrong. You can't cling to one dictionary's definition of sin until it is pried from your cold dead hands. For such a big definition of something like the concept of sin you have to look at many definitions besides Webster's. You don't agree with the Christian definition of sin because you don't believe in God, I get it. That is why I pointed you to broader definitions of sin. Really it isn't that hard to see other definitions. Just ask yourself what would be considered a sin against America? What did the native Americans think a sin was? You can ask yourself what you would consider a sin? From these questions you might come up with your own definition of sin and then can begin to think about how you deal with sin or overcome it. Then you can think about how society deals with sin and lastly you can then come to grips with an understanding of how Christianity deals with sin. If you want me to give you a clear definition of sin from a Christian perspective I can but to you it will be murky and you will only make fun of it because you don't agree with the fundamental truth that there is a God who cares deeply for us and sent His only Son so that we might have eternal life.

I picture EB looking at himself in the mirror arguing.

Quote: FrGamble

You can't cling to one dictionary's definition of sin

ONE?? Are you joking? They ALL have
the same definition that you are in such
denial about.


sin/
noun 1. an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

sin: a : transgression of the law of God

1. variable noun
Sin or a sin is an action or type of behavior which is believed to break the laws of God.

sin/ The definition of sin is doing what is wrong or not doing what is right according to God's rules

Sin: a willful or deliberate violation of divine law

1. Sin or a sin is an action or type of behavior which is believed to break the divine laws of God.

1. An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

I could go on and on with this. Sin first requires
a belief in some god, then it requires breaking
his rules and pissing him off. He's the ultimate
parent and you've disobeyed him. This is a childs
way of dealing with the world, which is what the
culture was who dreamed all this up. It's meant
to keep people in line, which it does very well.
Just don't expect those of us who don't need
a parent watching out for us all our lives to go
along with it.

Quote: Evenbob

I could go on and on with this. Sin first requires
a belief in some god, then it requires breaking
his rules and pissing him off. He's the ultimate
parent and you've disobeyed him. This is a childs
way of dealing with the world, which is what the
culture was who dreamed all this up. It's meant
to keep people in line, which it does very well.
Just don't expect those of us who don't need
a parent watching out for us all our lives to go
along with it.

Please don't go on and on. Haven't we both expressed our disagreements with the definition of sin given by dictionaries. I could care less how Webster or his friends define the word. We both realize there is much more to it than that. Don't go back to a dictionary you disagree with but rather think for yourself. Based on your recent post then do you define sin as the breaking of some law? That the notion of sin is equivalent to breaking the law? Laws do indeed act like a parent in some ways don't they, they attempt to keep us in line and there is a punishment when we sin or transgress the law of the land. Surely you are not questioning the need for laws, are you? Are laws childish? Notice that this discussion of breaking the law doesn't have to involve God at all but still gives us a sense of what sin means.

Quote: FrGamble

Laws do indeed act like a parent in some ways.

But in an adult, responsible way. There
is no forgiveness from some fake god
when we break a real law, we damn well
get punished. No slinking into a
confessional and spilling your guts to
a man you actually call 'father', to get
you off the hook. That's a childs world,
where you never have to grow up. You're
kept in a world of perpetual adolescence
by a Church who will do anything to keep
it's hooks into you.

You guys might as well argue over the same definition.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

Quote:

II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God's love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate's cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas' betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter's denial and the disciples' flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.