Simple question?

Quote: Evenbob

You really truly think anyone who was ever
wronged by someone actually forgives
them?

Yes I do. However, you are so confused about what forgiveness is that I don't really know where to start. I think you realize now that it is not letting someone off the hook or freeing them for the consequences of their actions. Forgiveness also does not mean forgetting. If someone stole money from you, when you forgive that person it doesn't mean you will ever let them borrow money. Sometimes when someone has hurt us deeply when we forgive them they still will never have a part in our life again.

Your idea to "just forget about" it is dangerous and not healthy. It sounds like repression. Just push down your anger with the person and pretend. Nothing could be worse. It is better to be angry, honest, and clearly communicate how you feel. Eventually we can forgive the person but again this is not for them, but for us to allow us to move on and not prolong the wrong that was done to us. It also allows the other person to know that they are better than their sin and maybe not with you, but with others they can strive to do better not doomed to always be a thief.

Quote:

People
are very bad at forgiving, they don't
understand how hard it is and how much
work it entails. Plus, you have to really
want to forgive, and most people don't
want that. They like carrying the grudge,
they like placing the blame.

This is unfortunately very, very true and thanks for mentioning it. It boggles the mind why we desire to hold grudges knowing that they only hurt us, but such is the struggle with sin. You nailed it when you said people first need to want to forgive. Sometimes I recommend praying something like, "Lord, I know I should forgive but I just can't or I don't want to." That type of honest prayer may be all we can muster at certain times in our lives. However, this slowly but surely softens our heart and gives God just enough room to start to work with us towards the freedom and joy of forgiveness.

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Oh really, when did shame stop working. It's why
the teacher put the dunces cap on the kid and
made him sit in the corner.

Surely you are not recommending we go back to the dunce caps?!? There is a reason we don't do that anymore. You put that hat on enough and you will convince yourself and others that you really are a dunce and the game is over. If you don't believe in yourself and others don't expect much from you then you will not be sucessfull. Shaming is about as effective as fear, they work on the same principal in getting people to behave themselves. That is to say that it is NOT very effective at all. Sure when the guy who can put you in the stocks is around no one wants to be publicly shamed. However, it does nothing to actually change the person. Think of the Game of Thrones scene with Ceresi, oh wait nevermind. Anyway she was shamed and what it lead to is mass murder. Public shame is about the worst thing you can do if you want to constructively help someone be better or rehabilitate them. If you want to harden their hatred and bad behavior it is very effective.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes I do. However, you are so confused about what forgiveness is

I'm not confused at ALL about what
it is. Shrinks say people rarely ever
really forgive because 1, they don't
really want to. 2, it's so much
damn work nobody really ever tries.
And 3, it might not work anyway, so
why bother trying.

In your little world you just pray to your
fake god and let him do the work. But
you don't live in the real world, you live
in a fantasy and mumbo jumbo world
where words mean everything and actual
reality is meaningless.

Quote:

Your idea to "just forget about" it is dangerous and not healthy.

It's not my idea, it's what psychologists say
we do. People are intellectually lazy and
usually take the easy way out of anything.
True forgiveness is a rare thing, I doubt if
you've ever seen it even once. What you
think is forgiveness is fakery and denial,
which people are experts at.

Quote:

Surely you are not recommending we go back to the dunce caps?!? There is a reason we don't do that anymore.

You don't? Sure you do, you shame remarried Catholics
by refusing them communion. The pope himself spoke
about it last year. How many practicing homosexuals
get communion in the Church? Or funerals, for that matter.
You do it to shame them in their lifestyle, and it's quite
effective, as shame usually is.

I know a couple that was a member of the same church
of 30 years and got divorced. The man was kicked off the
board of directors and lost his seat in the first pew. He
was so ashamed he quit that church and moved to another
state. They shamed him as a lesson to other members, don't
get divorced if you know what's good for you.

Religious shaming still goes on in full force, you just call it
by different names. You see it as your right, but it's still
public shaming no matter what you spin you try and put
on it. You've tried to shame me and others here for being
atheists, but it doesn't work because we know your game.
And we hold the trump card, we know there is no god,
something you haven't discovered yet.

Quote: Evenbob

And 3, it might not work anyway, so
why bother trying.

NO shrink in the entire world has ever said this about forgiveness. Please just stop making up silly things that you know are false. You sound desperate when you make up baloney like this. I dare you to find any sane person in the field of mental health who thinks we should not bother with forgiveness. Come on, be sensible and stop living in this fake world where you can make up whatever you want to believe because it is easier and fits your strange thoughts.

Quote:

It's not my idea, it's what psychologists say
we do. People are intellectually lazy and
usually take the easy way out of anything.
True forgiveness is a rare thing, I doubt if
you've ever seen it even once. What you
think is forgiveness is fakery and denial,
which people are experts at.

I cannot count the number of times I have experienced and seen true forgiveness. Do you think it is maybe because you haven't that you think it is so hard or impossible. Your made up psychologists won't help you here either, because none of them would ever, ever encourage you to just "forget about it" when dealing with our pain and hurt.

Quote:

You don't? Sure you do, you shame remarried Catholics
by refusing them communion. The pope himself spoke
about it last year. How many practicing homosexuals
get communion in the Church? Or funerals, for that matter.
You do it to shame them in their lifestyle, and it's quite
effective, as shame usually is.

I'd laugh if what you are talking about here wasn't so sad and serious. You yourself and showing how painfully weak shame is. The reason Pope Francis and those with hearts are wrestling with the Church's teaching is precisely because people feel shame and are leaving the Church when they shouldn't. Shame isn't helping them - it is hurting them - and the Church at the same time. There has to be a way that we can show the world and the people most effected by such difficulties can feel that they are essential to the Church and that God loves them so very much.

Quote:

Religious shaming still goes on in full force, you just call it
by different names.

You seem to be speaking out of two sides of your face here. I show you the weakness of shaming and by bringing up these examples it seems as if you agree with me. I just want to make sure we are both on the same page; religious shaming and any type of shaming are bad, horrible, and ineffective things that hurt people and do not help. Do you agree?

Quote:

You've tried to shame me and others here for being
atheists,

Demonstrating why you are wrong is not shaming anyone when it is done in charity. Perhaps I have failed in both respects. However, I maintain that an atheist holds illogical positions that cannot be reconciled with science and human experience.

Quote: FrGamble

I dare you to find any sane person in the field of mental health who thinks we should not bother with forgiveness.

They do say it's a lot of work and most
people aren't willing to do the work to
do it properly. I'm not, screw that, I
like my justifiable grudges, forgiveness
is way overrated.

Quote:

I cannot count the number of times I have experienced and seen true forgiveness.

LOL, sure you can, it's zero. True forgiveness
takes years to achieve and a huge sacrifice
in time and psychological effort. You are
not in that line of work, you're a quick
fix artist. You slap on a bandaid and call
it forgiveness.

Quote:

Shame isn't helping them - it is hurting them -

But that's your goal, to shame them out
of their lifestyle. I'm surprised you don't
make them wear sandwich boards while
in Church that read: "I'm Gay: No communion,
no marriage, no Church burial for me. I'm
so ashamed." The Vatican wants them to
be ashamed, most Christian churches do.
Shame works, it keeps at least some of them
from being sexually active.

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any type of shaming are bad, horrible, and ineffective things that hurt people and do not help. Do you agree?

Not at all. The military and football coaches use
shame all the time. It's a great motivator for
trying your best. Time outs and making a kid
sit in the corner is shaming. Lots of shaming
is abominable and non productive, like what
your Church does to Gays. But a little shaming
can go a long way in other areas.

Quote:

I maintain that an atheist holds illogical positions that cannot be reconciled with science and human experience.

So do you, but you've twisted yourself into such
a theological/nonsensical pretzel over it that
you can't see the forest for tress anymore,
you probably never could. You mind was polluted
with this religious garbage from the time you
could think, you never had a chance.

I forgive people who cut me off in traffic daily. It's mentally healthy to do so. I also forgive my grandson for poking my stomach and reminding me I'm fat.

Quote: Evenbob

They do say it's a lot of work and most
people aren't willing to do the work to
do it properly. I'm not, screw that, I
like my justifiable grudges, forgiveness
is way overrated.

Thanks for your honesty in both recognizing that no psychiatrist or counselor would ever doubt that forgiveness is worth it and that you are not following the advice of the mental health providers. I won't press you on why you posted that shrinks do say this. On a spiritual note I believe that holding onto grudges is the single greatest hindrance to spiritual growth there is. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Quote:

True forgiveness
takes years to achieve and a huge sacrifice
in time and psychological effort.

Without God's help I think you are right. However, with faith in a loving and forgiving God true forgiveness is much easier and desirable. It was kind of funny the day I read your post I had a very profound moment of true forgiveness.

Quote:

Not at all. The military and football coaches use
shame all the time. It's a great motivator for
trying your best. Time outs and making a kid
sit in the corner is shaming. Lots of shaming
is abominable and non productive, like what
your Church does to Gays. But a little shaming
can go a long way in other areas.

You are again talking out of both sides of your mount. Shame does not work. It is always a failure. It is not a great motivator. Have you ever played football or organized sports? I have played sports through college and I can tell you that using shame is not motivating.

Let's get to the point where we can at least agree that shame is not the best way to motivate or produce a change in behavior.

By the way your comments about gays in Church are of course completely wrong. I've never heard anyone denied a funeral before and I have never heard anyone withhold communion either. How am I to know who is gay? How do I know he or she hasn't gone to confession recently? Who am I to judge?

Quote: FrGamble

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."?

Probably why they didn't properly prosecute some of those priests and sent them back out to abuse more children.

Quote: FrGamble

Without God's help I think you are right. However, with faith in a loving and forgiving God true forgiveness is much easier and desirable.

And also non existent, it's all in your
fertile mind. There is no god to
forgive anything, just like there was
no Oz behind the curtain. But belief
that there is makes you assume things
you have no business assuming. This
'god and true forgiveness' thing is the
bandaid I was talking about, the thing
a shrink would scoff at as being a
meaningless quick fix.

Quote:

It was kind of funny the day I read your post I had a very profound moment of true forgiveness.

I passed wind that day, it was also
a profound experience. There
can't be much difference between
my experience and yours, just a
matter of different interpretations.

Quote:

Shame does not work. It is always a failure. It is not a great motivator.

Shame always works, that's why it was used
so effectively throughout history and is used
in so many countries in the world. It keeps
people behaving, nobody likes being shamed.

Quote:

By the way your comments about gays in Church are of course completely wrong.

You should really try and keep up.

(CNSNews.com) – In implementing Pope Francis’s recent letter on marriage and family, the archbishop of Philadelphia, Charles Chaput, released “pastoral guidelines” this month which clearly explain that divorced and remarried Catholics who are sexually active, as well as sexually active cohabiting couples and homosexual couples cannot receive Holy Communion, a sacrament of the Church.

Quote: Evenbob

This
'god and true forgiveness' thing is the
bandaid I was talking about, the thing
a shrink would scoff at as being a
meaningless quick fix.

Yet another thing you are pulling from your rear end. Psychologists and counselors all see the benefit that God and forgiveness play in people's mental health. Many "shrinks" as you call them have told me that they wish more people would go to confession or they could do it themselves because it is so freeing and helpful for people. By the way you continue to use words like "quick fix" when it comes to forgiveness and healing. This is never the case. There is no quick fix to anything important. Forgiveness is never quick or easy. But especially in the life of a Christian it is far from impossible. In fact in everything we do forgiveness is encouraged, desired, and supported. Let go of those grudges Bob and you will feel great.

Quote:

Shame always works, that's why it was used
so effectively throughout history and is used
in so many countries in the world. It keeps
people behaving, nobody likes being shamed.

Okay again trying to find common ground here. Can you at least agree that shaming only works when the person cares about being shamed, there is an authority to do the shaming, and that this shaming does nothing to really change the heart or mind of the person who is being shamed, but in fact usually will harden the hatred of someone who experiences shame. Do you think anyone got released from the stocks, stood up and said, "Thank you so much for that experience, I am truly a changed man and will never do wrong again.". Much more likely they crawl out of the stocks muttering hatred under their breath for everyone now and plotting a way for revenge. Let go of those grudges Bob.

Quote:

You should really try and keep up.

(CNSNews.com) – In implementing Pope Francis’s recent letter on marriage and family, the archbishop of Philadelphia, Charles Chaput, released “pastoral guidelines” this month which clearly explain that divorced and remarried Catholics who are sexually active, as well as sexually active cohabiting couples and homosexual couples cannot receive Holy Communion, a sacrament of the Church.

Okay and you should really listen Bob. If those couples go to confession or are not sexually active then they are welcome to Holy Communion. Do you think there is some test I should give in the communion line to see who should or should not receive according to the Church teaching? Of course not.

Quote: FrGamble

Psychologists and counselors all see the benefit that God and forgiveness play in people's mental health.

LOL, and you accuse me of making stuff
up. Show where you saw this. They 'all'
see the benefit.

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Let go of those grudges Bob and you will feel great.

You're a doctor now, how special. You
know nothing.

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shaming only works when the person cares about being shamed,

Shaming has worked for millennia
and will always work.

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If those couples go to confession or are not sexually active then they are welcome to Holy Communion. .

As I've said all along. They will be shamed and
left out if they don't play by the rules. Public
shaming is a tool the Church has used forever.
Only for the parishioners, though. A priest can
do what he likes, be a drunk, molest young kids,
and he in never shamed. He is swept under the
rug.