Simple question?

Quote: FrGamble

It seems meaningless to you even when everyone else says you are always wrong as well.

Really? You'll stand behind this ridiculous
statement?

Quote:

Everyone can forgive and everyone knows it is the best thing to do.

Yet almost nobody really does it, do they.
They say they've forgiven, even believe
they have, but the resentment and distrust
lie just below the surface waiting to pounce.
What you call forgiveness isn't that at all.
It's just a way to get somebody to keep
dealing with the person they resent without
wanting to kill them every day. That is NOT
forgiveness, that's a coping mechanism.
Find me a woman who has truly forgiven
her husband for cheating on her. They don't
exist.

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Even if the Church was offering a watered down version of something impossible you would think people would realize it.

How? They have nothing to compare it to.
And people are extremely gullible, they
believe whatever they're told. 'God has
forgiven you.' No way to prove it, no way
to verify it, they just have your word that
it's true. What a racket you have, you sell
things that don't exist and there are plenty
of buyers. Suckers, I mean.

Quote: Evenbob

Yet almost nobody really does it, do they.

Yes they do! Almost every healthy person has had the experience of being forgiven or forgiving others. It is a hallmark of humanity our ability to forgive and the benefits that come from it.

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They say they've forgiven, even believe
they have, but the resentment and distrust
lie just below the surface waiting to pounce.
What you call forgiveness isn't that at all.

You are right what I call forgiveness does NOT mean lingering resentments and distrust. It is a true forgiveness and a freedom from the anger and hurt that only hinders the person holding the grudge from living their life.

Quote:

It's just a way to get somebody to keep
dealing with the person they resent without
wanting to kill them every day. That is NOT
forgiveness, that's a coping mechanism.

I agree. I'm not talking about a coping mechanism, I am talking about true freedom and real forgiveness. I hope you don't think forgiveness means forgetting, because it is not that as well. Many times, and in all serious cases, the person who is forgiving hopefully never deals with or has contact with the person they forgive again. Forgiveness is not for the one who has caused the pain, it is for the victim. So they no longer carry the wound, they can be set free, and learn from their past experiences. I hope you understand that because a lot of people get in trouble thinking that I have only forgiven the person when I have forgotten about the hurt or when I can be friends with them again. This is usually impossible and can cause great harm.

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Find me a woman who has truly forgiven
her husband for cheating on her. They don't
exist.

They very much do exist. How many do you want to meet? I can also introduce you to men who have forgiven their wives for cheating.

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How? They have nothing to compare it to.
And people are extremely gullible, they
believe whatever they're told.

Maybe you do, but the average person does not. Sometimes I think you live on an alien planet somewhere.

Quote:

No way to prove it, no way
to verify it, they just have your word that
it's true. What a racket you have, you sell
things that don't exist and there are plenty
of buyers. Suckers, I mean.

First of all I sell absolutely nothing. Secondly, what proof is there of true forgiveness when it is obtained? It is a feeling, but deeper and lasting. It is the taste of freedom and you can't fake that.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes they do! Almost every healthy person has had the experience of being forgiven or forgiving others.

No they haven't, not the real thing. The
ersatz brand you sell is just words, it
only goes skin deep.

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It is a true forgiveness

It's not even close, but keep deluding
yourself, lord knows you're an expert
at it.

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the person who is forgiving hopefully never deals with or has contact with the person they forgive again.

What the what!!??? True forgiveness only
works if you deal face to face with the
other person, otherwise it's just denial
and avoidance. Which isn't forgiveness
at all. You teach people how to bury
and suppress their feelings if you don't
let them work it out with the other
person. Good luck trying to forgive a
dead person, that's very difficult and
takes years of work.

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I can also introduce you to men who have forgiven their wives for cheating.

Or at least think they have. But really haven't.

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I sell absolutely nothing.

You sell your religion and all that it
entails. You sell hocus pocus, the
supernatural, and urban myths that
you say aren't myths at all. You have
a whole bag full of stuff you're selling.

Quote: Evenbob

What the what!!??? True forgiveness only
works if you deal face to face with the
other person,

I don't know why you say this. Sometimes it is not possible to deal face to face with someone who has hurt you deeply. If someone rapes you I don't see why forgiveness means you have to deal face to face with that person, other than seeing them in court. Remember, forgiveness is not for the one who caused the pain, it is for the victim. It is what frees them from carrying and continuing to be hurt by some evil done to them. What possible advantage is it for the victim to deal face to face with the one who has hurt them? Now of course I am talking about serious things here like rape, murder, and abuse. I also know of cases where the person did want to confront the person who hurt them and was strong enough to do so.

What I want to make sure you are not saying is that you equate forgiveness with forgetting. To forgive someone does not mean that you treat them as if nothing ever happened or to just pretend hey haven't hurt you. That is false forgiveness and can be very harmful. That isn't what you mean is it?

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You teach people how to bury
and suppress their feelings if you don't
let them work it out with the other
person.

Exactly the opposite. Burying or suppressing feelings never work. Nor does yelling and screaming at some one or revenge. There are ways to deal in a healthy way with your feelings that doesn't mean you need to "work it out" with the other person. This is especially true for serious matters. Remember they are your feelings and the other person is not in control of what you feel. In fact true forgiveness gives you the freedom to take back control of your life and your feelings no matter what or how another person may act. I hope you get this.

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Or at least think they have. But really haven't.

Are you sure?

Quote: FrGamble

If someone rapes you I don't see why forgiveness means you have to deal face to face with that person

If you don't, any forgiveness you feel
will be shallow and is more about
burying feelings than dealing with them.

Quote:

There are ways to deal in a healthy way with your feelings that doesn't mean you need to "work it out" with the other person.

Not if you want true forgiveness. If
you just want a coping mechanism,
which most people do, what you
provide is fine. Just quit thinking
it's forgiveness, because it's not.

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In fact true forgiveness gives you the freedom to take back control of your life and your feelings no matter what or how another person may act.

But this rarely happens, almost never.
You apparently think it does, but you
have a lot of strange ideas. You don't
see the world as it is, but as they way
you think it should be. They aren't
the same thing, not even close.






Are you sure?

Quote: Evenbob

If you don't, any forgiveness you feel
will be shallow and is more about
burying feelings than dealing with them.

Again, burying feelings is not forgiveness. Please explain to me why I need to reconcile with you face to face if you kill someone I love.

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Not if you want true forgiveness.

So for you true forgiveness means you have to have the person who hurt you in your life somehow?!? Does it mean you have to be friends with them too? I know you are not saying that true forgiveness is only when you can be friends again with the person who robbed you.

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But this rarely happens, almost never.
You apparently think it does,

Oh my God it happens a lot. Maybe you haven't experienced it or don't want to so you think it doesn't happen all the time but it does. It is how people heal from the experience of evil or pain in their lives. If the kind of forgiveness that gives you back control of your life and your feelings happens so rarely how do you explain so many good and healthy people in the world. If true forgiveness was a rare as you think it is the world would be in a much bigger problem than it is now.

Quote: FrGamble

Again, burying feelings is not forgiveness. Please explain to me why I need to reconcile with you face to face if you kill someone I love.

Because if you forgive someone from afar,
it's just a concept, it's not real. You see all
the time people going to prisons to confront
those who wronged them.

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So for you true forgiveness means you have to have the person who hurt you in your life somehow?!?

It means confronting them and working
things out, not moving in together and
being BFF's. Get real.

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Oh my God it happens a lot.

OMG, no it doesn't. I have to remember
you think the wine and bread really turn
into the body and blood of Jesus, and
your words have actual magical power.
You believe that a god watches your
every move and some you'll be judged.
You believe a basket full of wacky things,
what's one more.

Quote: Evenbob

Because if you forgive someone from afar,
it's just a concept, it's not real. You see all
the time people going to prisons to confront
those who wronged them.

So you think it is necessary to confront someone face to face and "work it out" with them for it to be real forgiveness. By "work it out" does that mean the other person has to accept your forgiveness or apologize or something like that? Don't you think that just gives the abuser another way to control and determine how the victim feels? This is precisely why a face to face confrontation is not necessary for someone to obtain the freedom of forgiveness.

Quote: FrGamble

So you think it is necessary to confront someone face to face and "work it out" with them for it to be real forgiveness. By "work it out" does that mean the other person has to accept your forgiveness or apologize or something like that? Don't you think that just gives the abuser another way to control and determine how the victim feels? .

You can only be controlled if you let
yourself be controlled. That's part of
what this is all about.

Quote: Evenbob

You can only be controlled if you let
yourself be controlled. That's part of
what this is all about.

Good so that means you don't need to confront someone face to face to experience the freedom of forgiveness, right?