Two Gods or One

Quote: FrGamble

Christianity was created by Christ and spread by humans at the command of Christ.

Naw. Recent research shows it was mostly
created by Paul and spread by the followers
of Paul. Which makes perfect sense, that's
how most cults get started. Urban legends
get embellished and embellished until it
takes on a life of it's own.

Quote: FrGamble

You can't keep tracing the history of your desk back for eternity. At some point the atoms and the stuff of atoms needed to be created.

Nope. The atoms were just something else
before they were the atoms of the desk.
Like the log you burn in the fireplace is
now heat and smoke and water vapor.
Which will soon be a part of something
else. Carry this out on a universal scale
and there's no creator to be found. This is
not a new idea, it's covered at length in
the vedic upanishads, which is part of
the oldest religion in the world. You and
I and the universe has always been here,
and always will be, in one form or another.
Don't get too attached to anything, nothing
lasts for very long.

Quote: Evenbob

..I guess what would be the point of inventing a
god if you weren't the center of his universe.

That is a seriously cool statement.

Quote:

That's what a god believer is saying to a non believer.
"C'mon, aren't you intrigued? Don't you want some
god making you all important to him, that he knows your
every thought and loves you anyway? Just play gods
game and you've got it made." No thanks, that
kind of narcissism really unappealing.

These threads have helped me alot. I'm sitting in a parking lot outside the Mayo and tomorrow will be 116*, I'm in a little camper hoping my generator don't puke, cuz I will lose my ac.

I am a lone patient. This is weird. At night I leave the door unlocked in case somebody needs to get my carcus out of here before I stink up the place.

I tried for decades to be xtian, but I kept seeing the hypocrisy, which would lead me away. Then I decided that, people tend to find what they are looking for and quit trying to find what was wrong with religion and searched for what was right. Accepting all the plants and animals and hills as just the creator's artwork.

Somehow, I just lost belief?

As far as being an atheist and whatever, this is how I'm looking at it right now and comparing myself as either being in some form of religion or not.

My wife said, "there's a show on at the theater", I said "what is it", she said I don't know I will have to look in the paper. Right now, Christianity is that show?

I am not going to feel guilty, and it pisses me off that all the xtions around me try cheering me up by saying they will pray for me. Some of them are pretty nice so I don't want to piss on them, but down deep I think like you said, they are talking to themselves and are actually doing all this praying because it makes them feel good about themselves.

If they want to pray in the comfort of their own homes or quietly in public, that is ok with me. But I thoroughly dislike all these different groups claiming to all be the representative of "the creator", in my face. I really prefer to be nice if I can, and try to let them go on about themselves, but I am really up against the wall here, and there is a limit to how much I will allow them, to do this mother Theresa stuff around me.

Is it weird that I find more peace listening to an atheist than a theist?? I always thought it would be the other way, but it isn't. That buddha stuff helps the thinker be in the now, which is all there is. This xtion stuff try's to make me feel guilty about any little wrong [according to them] that I may have done, and threaten to punish me for eternity. Atheism tends to help me believe that this moment is kinda like the next moment and the prior one.

All I am getting out of this god thing, is I'm about to be punished for a very, very, long time. What a cruel religion.

Quote: FrGamble

At some point the atoms and the stuff of atoms needed to be created.

BBT. Look it up. there's a rather good timeline on when atoms began to appear and how. Unfortunately they made for a rather limited universe of mostly hydrogen and helium. It took a while for stars and then super novas to fuse them into elements with more potential.

Quote:

hings don't just pop into being without a cause and if they don't have the reason for their existence in themselves they depend on something else for their existence.

That's a remarkable statement. If I were to present you with, oh, a trillion moles of assorted molecules, could you point out what indicates in any of their atoms, even just one, a "reason for their existence"?

Quote:

To stop this infinite regress and to make sense as to why anything exists you need a being that has the power to create all material things and is non-contingent, meaning that He depends on nothing else for His existence, He is being itself.

No.

To stop a regress from becoming infinite (you cannot stop an actual infinite regress; it's infinite by definition), you just need to find the demonstrable end point of it. Any six-year old knows this, and can wear down a statue by asking "why?" after every answer.

Now, any rational person with a basic knowledge of philosophy, knows that metaphysics indicates existence is as it is and not as we wish it to be. Facts, evidence and theory indicate energy has always existed.

Is that the end point? I don't know. no one knows. We may never even be able to find out. But inventing an entity to create existence is merely an unnecessary multiplication of an already complex problem.

And trying to use this fictional being as basis to impose your notions of ethics and morality on everyone else, is simple tyranny.

Quote: Nareed

..And trying to use this fictional being as basis to impose your notions of ethics and morality on everyone else, is simple tyranny.

I think it is a business model

Quote: petroglyph

Somehow, I just lost belief?

That's what a lot of atheists say, they
woke up one day and realized they
had no beliefs, and it was OK.

Quote:

Is it weird that I find more peace listening to an atheist than a theist??.

Nope. There is a real peace with being
an atheist. You're living your own life
on your own terms and not somebody
elses. You're your own person. You feel
connected to the universe, instead of
separate from it, as organized religion
teaches. You don't feel all bloated up
with self importance that you're something
more special than anything else.

Quote: petroglyph

I think it is a business model

That has varied for years. At one time Indulgences were hot sellers. Now it's allegedly "charity," though that's more prevalent in the more mainstream Protestant splinters in America.

Religious tyranny is nothing new. At the time Christianity was devised, priests held considerable power and wealth. Not so much by that time in the Roman Empire, but in Canaan, Egypt, Parthia and whatever small kingdoms the Parthians and Romans let have some autonomy, priests had it good with cushy jobs.

As the Roman Empire Christianized, the emperor had to give up the title of Pontifex Maximus (Chief High Priest), a civil office, and that left the door wide open for the Popes and Patriarchs to assert their power in the temporal realm they claim to eschew.

God could have sent angels to every continent instead of jesus to spread the message. Would have been more effective.

So, I really have to conclude the process he chose is highly suspect for convincing anyone. Which leads to the more likely conclusion it's fraudulent.

Quote: petroglyph

Is it weird that I find more peace listening to an atheist than a theist?? I always thought it would be the other way, but it isn't. That buddha stuff helps the thinker be in the now, which is all there is. This xtion stuff try's to make me feel guilty about any little wrong [according to them] that I may have done, and threaten to punish me for eternity. Atheism tends to help me believe that this moment is kinda like the next moment and the prior one.

All I am getting out of this god thing, is I'm about to be punished for a very, very, long time. What a cruel religion.

Petro, thanks for your powerful post and for sharing. What you are saying is a billion times more important than anything Evenbob and I banter about.

When it boils down to it Christianity is not about what others might tell you about God or how they share their own relationship with God with you. It is not even about the Mother Teresa stuff. It is all about encounter personally a God who loves you, suffers with you and for you, and whose love has conquered even death itself. As you come to know Him deeper in your prayer you will realize that there is no threat of punishment only a promise of happiness. He has already forgiven you and there is nothing to fear!

In your own way I encourage you to cry out to Him, speak honestly to Him about what you are going through, you worries and frustration. He will be there for you. If you have a Bible read one of the passion narratives from one of the Gospels and meet God who is no stranger to what it feels like to "be really up against the wall". Accept the now for what it is a present of immense value, but don't just settle for that. Look at a future for you full of hope. Feel free to PM me anytime if you need anything. God Bless you!

Quote: rxwine

God could have sent angels to every continent instead of jesus to spread the message. Would have been more effective.

So, I really have to conclude the process he chose is highly suspect for convincing anyone. Which leads to the more likely conclusion it's fraudulent.

Think about any good news or truth that has spread around the world, it is done in a very human real way. Why do you think angels at the corners of the world would be any more effective? There have been many miracles and appearances all around the world and they are rightly met with more skepticism than belief. There is nothing more effective and convincing than another human beings life changing experience and their own personal testimony.

The other thing to look at is the difference between the spread of Christianity and every other religion or any other idea that mankind has every had. There is without a doubt something special about something that began with a crucified criminal and some fisherman and has now spread to every corner of the earth. A religion that began under great persecution and spread through the poor and marginalized of society that eventually toppled the greatest empire on earth. The man Jesus of Nazareth changed the world in ways no other human being has or will ever do and He only publically ministered for three years. He was obviously God and His message of peace and love resonate today through the lives of billions of people. There is no other explanation for this other than the divine.