Two Gods or One

Quote: FrGamble

In your own way I encourage you to cry out to Him, speak honestly to Him about what you are going through, you worries and frustration. He will be there for you. !

Or so you believe. Others have different
opinions.

Quote: FrGamble

There is no other explanation for this other than the divine.

Actually, they are many explanations, and
none of them are divine. God is the very
last answer to anything, it's never
the first.

Sure there is another explanation: there is no god and people acomplished all of those things on their own.

You must have really low expectations of what you think people can do on their own, if everything above a certain level of achievement requires a higher power to help you to accomplish something.

Quote: Nareed

BBT. Look it up. there's a rather good timeline on when atoms began to appear and how. Unfortunately they made for a rather limited universe of mostly hydrogen and helium. It took a while for stars and then super novas to fuse them into elements with more potential.

Yes there is a good timeline as to when atoms began to appear. They exploded unto the scene through the Big Bang singularity. What happened to cause this explosion goes beyond the BBT into the realm of metaphysics and logic. Open your mind to ask the question what was around before that seminal moment of the Big Bang and you will see the only answer is to posit a being who we all commonly refer to as God. If there is another logical solution I would be glad to hear it.

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That's a remarkable statement. If I were to present you with, oh, a trillion moles of assorted molecules, could you point out what indicates in any of their atoms, even just one, a "reason for their existence"?

Isn't it obvious? Just ask yourself did any of these assorted molecules create themselves? Here is another test, are they material? If the answer is yes then they do not have their reason for their existence in themselves.

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To stop a regress from becoming infinite (you cannot stop an actual infinite regress; it's infinite by definition), you just need to find the demonstrable end point of it. Any six-year old knows this, and can wear down a statue by asking "why?" after every answer.

Good, we are in agreement.

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Now, any rational person with a basic knowledge of philosophy, knows that metaphysics indicates existence is as it is and not as we wish it to be. Facts, evidence and theory indicate energy has always existed.

This is not true and a simple flaw in your metaphysics and philosophy. Energy in its material form that we know it has not always existed. A simple question you can ask yourself to realize this point is: can you imagine a universe without energy as we see it now? If the answer is yes than it is not necessary and therefore was created.

Now, maybe you are positing the idea of a pure form of energy, a spiritual energy before it became the stuff of atoms and combination of these began our amazing universe. Here we can find common ground in that perhaps this pure energy is God.

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Is that the end point? I don't know. no one knows. We may never even be able to find out. But inventing an entity to create existence is merely an unnecessary multiplication of an already complex problem.

An entity is not invented but is necessary. However, the nature of this entity is extremely complex and we would never be able to find out, unless of course that entity chose to reveal Himself in a way we could understand.

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And trying to use this fictional being as basis to impose your notions of ethics and morality on everyone else, is simple tyranny.

As seen above this being is not fictional, but necessary. If this being is indeed the creator revealed to us in Jesus Christ than the notions of ethics and morality He passes on to us is only to help us and to make us thrive. It is as if you have received a brand new car and the creator of the car tells you how to operate it and you insist on filling it up with sugar and putting square wheels on. When the car doesn't work and breaks down it is not tyranny.

Quote: Dalex64

Sure there is another explanation: there is no god and people acomplished all of those things on their own.

You must have really low expectations of what you think people can do on their own, if everything above a certain level of achievement requires a higher power to help you to accomplish something.

And you I'm afraid have an exaggerated view of what you think people can do if you think a rag time bunch of uneducated fisherman can create a religion that spreads through their own society in the midst of persecution and during a time when there was no mass communication to become the world's dominate religion to the point that we today date our years after the birth of this God/man Jesus.

Quote: FrGamble

And you I'm afraid have an exaggerated view of what you think people can do if you think a rag time bunch of uneducated fisherman can create a religion

They didn't create it, the embellishers did over
the centuries after Jesus death. Paul created
it in the 1st century and it grew from there.
He invented it and it got embellished after
that, and Constantine saved it. It's more
him than anybody else that you should be
thankful to. He's the one responsible for
making the Church mega wealthy and
famous.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes there is a good timeline as to when atoms began to appear. They exploded unto the scene .

This entire post is desperation on parade.
You think you can prove there's a god
with arguments and twisted logic. You
can't. Has it ever occurred to you that
if there was an all knowing creator god
who is also a personal god, it would
never be your job to prove he was
real? It would be the gods job. And
don't give the spiel that god speaks
thru you, he wouldn't need you to
do that if he really existed. He wouldn't
make a silly game out of it, he would
just prove to the person that he was
real that would be that.

The whole religious game in so tiring
and so trite. God is real and oh so
important, but he's only smart enough
to have dumbshit humans as his
spokespeople. Talk about lame.

Quote: FrGamble

And you I'm afraid have an exaggerated view of what you think people can do if you think a rag time bunch of uneducated fisherman can create a religion that spreads through their own society in the midst of persecution and during a time when there was no mass communication to become the world's dominate religion to the point that we today date our years after the birth of this God/man Jesus.

So how did all of those religions before christianity, which worshiped gods which clearly were not real, spread?

Your religion was very small and regional until technology and mass communication allowed it to spread more easily. It is a case of being in the right place at the right time.

Other religions that existed before christianity still exist today, in the face of christian missionaries converting everyone they possibly could.

Since they are still around, and they can't be doing it with your god's help, that is the proof of what humans can do without divine support.

Quote: FrGamble

Yes there is a good timeline as to when atoms began to appear. They exploded unto the scene through the Big Bang singularity.

the early universe was too hot for atoms to form. It took some eons for things to cool down enough.

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If there is another logical solution I would be glad to hear it.

There is but one logical solution: WE DON'T FUCKING KNOW, and it would be irresponsible to assert anything at all as a settled explanation.

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Just ask yourself did any of these assorted molecules create themselves?

Yes, as a matter of fact. DNA assembles itself.

But that doesn't mean DNA has a reason for its existence.

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Energy in its material form that we know it has not always existed.

It was there before there was a universe. Therefore as far as the entirety of existence is concerned, energy has always existed.

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A simple question you can ask yourself to realize this point is: can you imagine a universe without energy as we see it now?

The universe is energy. It's what drives everything and what everything is made if. If there's no energy, there's no universe.

Can you imagine a sandy beach without water, sand or even air?

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Now, maybe you are positing the idea of a pure form of energy,

<roll-eyes>

While there are many forms of energy, the notion of "pure" energy is ridiculous. All energy is "pure energy." What do you think it might be mixed or contaminated with? Dust?

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Here we can find common ground in that perhaps this pure energy is God.

You'd have more luck selling a perpetual motion machine to power the physics labs at Cal Tech.

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If this being is indeed the creator revealed to us in Jesus Christ than the notions of ethics and morality He passes on to us is only to help us and to make us thrive.

IF I had wings I wouldn't kill myself jumping off the Stratosphere Tower in Vegas, would I?

We're in agreement then: it is tyranny.

Quote: rxwine

God could have sent angels to every continent instead of jesus to spread the message. Would have been more effective.

You have to understand, it's very hard for imaginary beings to do anything at all, much less summon forth other imaginary beings to spread a message all over the world.