Original Sin?

Quote: FrGamble

I can't take it anymore!!! That is not from the Catechism at all. .

I fail to see the difference, it's almost
exactly what the other guy wrote.

"every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil."

The Vatican version makes no mention
that it's bad for a woman's health. It's just
one more thing the Church made up to
control people with. So they call it
evil to scare them. Which isn't
working because 98% of Catholic
women do it anyway.

Quote: Evenbob

The Vatican version makes no mention
that it's bad for a woman's health. It's just
one more thing the Church made up to
control people with.

If you have been paying attention to our conversation here you know that the health concerns surrounding the pill are not at all made up, they are real. If you did read the excerpt than you know that the Church is speaking of the pill and other contraceptives in the section about marital fecundity. They are giving you test results about what happens when you take the pill. Even it was not harmful to a woman's health it still wouldn't be immoral.

Quote:

So they call it
evil to scare them.

There is nothing about scaring someone in the Catechism it is just laying out the reasons about why artificial contraceptives don't have a place in marriage. Maybe you could actually examine the argument and challenge it without just speaking out of your own prejudice.

Quote: FrGamble

Maybe you could actually examine the argument .

There is no argument to examine. It's up
to the married couple to make the choice
on using BC, it not the business of some
fuddy duddy celibate men to do it for them.
The Bible nowhere forbids birth control,
either explicitly or implicitly. It's just
another way the Church cult controls
people. And as I'll keep pointing out,
98% of the Church women are ignoring
you. Women resent being told what to
do with their bodies by men, any men.

Quote: FrGamble

I can't take it anymore!!!

You seem upset that atheists, as well as many Christians, do not automatically accept arbitrary Catholic diktats.

Not at all, I'm upset that people say things that are not true and believe things about the Catholic Church without thinking critically or reasonably.

Quote: Evenbob

It's up
to the married couple to make the choice
on using BC,

Of course it is, who is saying it isn't?!? The Church is just pointing out that BC can negatively harm the relationship of the couple (not to mention the physical harm to the woman).

Quote: FrGamble

Of course it is, who is saying it isn't?!? The Church is just pointing out that BC can negatively harm the relationship of the couple (not to mention the physical harm to the woman).

No, the church says that unapproved methods of BC are a mortal sin, and you go to hell for mortal sins.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/peopleevents/e_church.html

That is very very different from pointing out that BC can harm a relationship or physically harm a person. Not just women - vasectomies have risks and can harm the man.

There is a big difference between "your relationship might be damaged" and "you will be punished for all of eternity"

Quote: FrGamble

Not at all, I'm upset that people say things that are not true

Really? Do you ever listen to yourself?

Quote: Dalex64

There is a big difference between "your relationship might be damaged" and "you will be punished for all of eternity"

This is what angers me so much about
dealing with FrG. He's a snake oil
salesman, he never talks straight about
anything. He's knows damn well what
the Church say about BC, but he never
comes out and says it. He never says
it's evil, or that you will go to hell for
doing it. He avoids the hot button words
and goes for the soft sell of it's unhealthy
and not natural. He gets down on me
for quoting a source, then sends me to
a Vatican page that essentially says the
very same thing. It's crazy.

It is kind of surreal to me that so many non-Catholics and even some who do not believe in God want to abide by the Church's theological understanding of morality. I am under no illusions that the theological understanding of marriage and why birth control is intrinsically evil according to the Catholic Church is going to suddenly have you change your mind. As a non-Catholic it is not as if you are held to following our moral teachings anyway. However, by showing clearly that contraceptives are not good for couples in regards to their communication and also in showing that the pill, the most pushed medicine in our culture today, is harmful for women - I would hope that just in a secular sense, leaving God and eternal punishment (which doesn't apply to those who don't understand or are not bound to the teaching) out of it, you would see the bill of goods the snake oil salesman called secular materialism have sold you.