Original Sin?

Thanks for fielding that one Buzz.

SL, I simply can't allow you to extol the freedom of Western Europe based on the foundational influence of Christianity and at the same time allude to the idea that Soviet Communism was not a disaster, when no matter how strong it was or for however long it lasted, it was built upon repression and the mass murder of its citizens.

Also you really can see insults where there are none can't you? I have said numerous times now that atheism is morally neutral in that it does not lead one to do good nor evil. It also doesn't do anything to dissuade one from doing evil, but it doesn't stop one from doing good either. You can resent the implication all you want but just a brief glance at history will show you that the greatest atrocities in the history of humankind were all done (and done recently) by leaders and/or governments that either believed there was no God or that they were god.

I feel my intelligence insulted by the way that you would compare not believing in God as equivalent to not liking opera. Hopefully you just grasped for some example and didn't really mean to say that the fact that you don't believe in a creator for the universe and all the implications about inherent meaning of life, morality, etc. is on par with your taste in music?!?

Quote: Evenbob

So what. I can take a rock and fire it
out of a cannon and kill somebody,
does that mean the rock is a bad
thing? Having no belief in gods is
just that, quit trying to make it
something it's not.

There are some ideas that actually have evidence and reason to support them that would have you not even take up a rock at all. Why not chose one of them?

Quote:

That thing you constructed to make it
thru daily life, you think that's what's
getting rewarded. So yeah, it's pretty
silly.

I'm sorry I really don't understand what you are trying to say here, it sounds well....silly.

Quote: FrGamble

I'm sorry I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.

Sure you do. You think the memories and
likes and dislikes that make up your present
ego is the thing that will be rewarded
forever in heaven. That ever changing construct
that you've built to survive daily life. You
think that's the 'real' you.

The Mormon's have carried it one step further.
All the ego constructs you call your family will
be sentenced to spend eternity together in
'heaven'. Such a funny joke, humans are hubris
on parade.

Quote: Evenbob

Sure you do. You think the memories and
likes and dislikes that make up your present
ego is the thing that will be rewarded
forever in heaven. That ever changing construct
that you've built to survive daily life. You
think that's the 'real' you.

How do you make a distinction between the "real you" and what you like or dislike. They all seem to be the same to me.

Quote: buzzardknot

" You can't point out any "disastrous" official atheist government or society. "

Just killed 2 or 3 million people, stinky. Khmer Rouge rule of Cambodia

And that was due to the KR's supposed atheism? Or was it due to the fact that they were murderous fanatics?

FG's premise is that being atheist turns people and governments into amoral evildoers. I can't offhand think of a premise more ludicrous. For one thing, the vast majority of such evildoers now and throughout history have been religious, sometimes even rabidly so.

I can't imagine how a study might be conducted to determine it, but I'd be willing to bet that the most religious societies throughout history have also been the most violent and committed the most atrocities. Starting, of course, with Christian societies.

Quote: stinkingliberal

And that was due to the KR's supposed atheism? Or was it due to the fact that they were murderous fanatics?

FG's premise is that being atheist turns people and governments into amoral evildoers. I can't offhand think of a premise more ludicrous. For one thing, the vast majority of such evildoers now and throughout history have been religious, sometimes even rabidly so.

I can't imagine how a study might be conducted to determine it, but I'd be willing to bet that the most religious societies throughout history have also been the most violent and committed the most atrocities. Starting, of course, with Christian societies.

" " You can't point out any "disastrous" official atheist government or society. " I just pointed, you go off on a tangent. You are never WRONG !

Quote: stinkingliberal

FG's premise is that being atheist turns people and governments into amoral evildoers.

You really love your strawmen don't you? Never have I said this and I challenge you to point out one instance.

Here is what I have been trying to say: atheism does nothing to encourage good or evil nor to dissuade either one. It is the fertile soil of relativists. While I am flabbergasted you doubt the KR's atheism you cannot deny that they were relativists; people who don't think there is any universal truth or goodness so they can go about making up their own beliefs and morality to suit them and their own desires and needs. Now relativism doesn't have to spring out of atheism and even relativism doesn't mean you become a genocidal maniac. My premise is that atheism does not make someone into anything but it neither encourages or dissuades goodness or evil.

Quote:

but I'd be willing to bet that the most religious societies throughout history have also been the most violent and committed the most atrocities. Starting, of course, with Christian societies.

Just a cursory glance at history will show you to be wrong. Start just in our most recent century, which was the bloodiest century in human history. The greatest atrocities ever seen were done and they had nothing to do with Christianity, in fact the only thing that united them was their persecution of Christianity. I don't know if you are secretly competing with Evenbob to see who can be more wrong about certain things but this has moved you up in the rankings.

Quote: FrGamble

How do you make a distinction between the "real you" and what you like or dislike. They all seem to be the same to me.

That was the Buddha's message, trying not
to have an ego centered you. It's the point
of zen meditation, it's called becoming
'enlightened'. Zen masters are known to have
two personalities, one that deals with everyday
life, that likes oatmeal for breakfast, driving
a fast car, seeing old Westerns on TV, maybe. The
other side of them is for the zendo, where they
teach zazen meditation and issue the koans,
the riddles that have no right answers. The
point of all of it is to get beyond the ego centered
you and find the real you. The part of you that's
been here forever.

It's a calling for people serious about it. They're
born with a drive not be part of the world
anymore, to find the inner peace that's at the
center of all of us. It's why a yogi sits and contemplates
his navel for 20 years. It's not for everybody.

Quote: FrGamble

which was the bloodiest century in human history. The greatest atrocities ever seen were done and they had nothing to do with Christianity,

You keep saying this like it's true. Hitler
was raised a devout Catholic and never
renounced his Catholic beliefs. The Church
of his time, around 1900, taught him to
hate and distrust the Jews. The Vatican
at that time was on a jihad to keep the
Jews from reclaiming the Holy Land as
their own and Catholics were taught that
Jews were why the world was such an
evil place. Hitler took it upon himself
to exterminate the while race. So quit
saying the Church had nothing to do
with WWII atrocities, they were up to
their necks in it.

Quote: Evenbob

You keep saying this like it's true. Hitler
was raised a devout Catholic and never
renounced his Catholic beliefs.

Probably when he was killing priests, bishops, and persecuting the Catholic Church he also kind of renounced it. Also you are simply wrong about the Vatican or Christianity teaching that Jews, the religion of Jesus and our elder brothers and sisters in the faith, were the reason the world was evil. Just look at the actions of so many saints and popes during that time. Look at St. Edith Stein or St. Maximillian Kolbe. I believe Dietrich Bonnhoeffer is also a saint. So quit trying to paint the whole Church with some large brush when it fought against the atrocities of WWII.