Pope Francis

Quote: FrGamble

. You have shown over and over again you are only interested in history that you want to believe. .

You have shown over and over you
are only interested in the what the
Vatican says about history. You're
the epitome of the loyal 'company
man', your company can do no wrong
and whatever it says you believe 100%.
You're a rubber stamp. Congrats.

The Vatican can, does, and has done plenty of things wrong. You can learn all about it in real history books and in the newspapers. Look there instead of your myth filled anti-Catholic propaganda.

Look, if this is just going to be a he said, she said kind of thing we should stop. I've mentioned before that we could do a thread where we both read the same book and discuss it. Maybe that would be better.

Quote: rxwine

So why not appoint a physical being female Mary above your Pope. Why? The original apostles are gone, but you have represented them with people. She was a human also, not god.

Indeed and she had a very different role than the Apostles, much, much more important as well.

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Second, ask your Pope about something else Jesus never did. He never built any churches much less elaborate expensive ornate ones.

Jesus never had Korean BBQ either, surely we can't stop doing that?!?

This is example is far less offensive, but just as strange. Jesus obviously didn't have anything against temples, except when they became a den of thieves. The ornate Churches are for the honor and glory of God. All people can enjoy them and pray in them. However, you have a point. The Church is not about buildings and structures and stuff like that. It is about loving God and our neighbor. I don't see how building beautiful Churches is against either of these things.

It might be time for the pope to retire.

‘Heretic’ in the Vatican

https://www.politico.eu/article/pope-francis-heretic-vatican-liberal-conservative-war/

FrGamble can you name even one woman who was known for wandering around on her own in that era, who was respected, known and listened to, who could do it as male apostle could, by herself. It's the most obvious reason why Jesus didn't appoint females. The men on their own had enough trouble when people got tired of hearing them yak since most of them were crucified. I think only old women could travel around alone.

You have until eternity to find just one example.

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Women's status and freedoms were severely limited by Jewish law and custom in ancient Israel, as they were in essentially all other cultures at the time. Generally speaking:

most were restricted to roles of little or no authority,

they were largely confined to their father's or husband's home,

they were considered to be inferior to men, and under the authority of men -- either their father before marriage, or their husband afterwards.

From the Second Temple period, women were not allowed to testify in court trials. They could not go out in public, or talk to strangers. When outside of their homes, they were to be doubly veiled. "They had become second-class Jews, excluded from the worship and teaching of God, with status scarcely above that of slaves." 1 Their position in society was defined in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the interpretation of those scriptures. More details.

Quote: rxwine

FrGamble can you name even one woman who was known for wandering around on her own in that era, who was respected, known and listened to, who could do it as male apostle could, by herself. It's the most obvious reason why Jesus didn't appoint females. The men on their own had enough trouble when people got tired of hearing them yak since most of them were crucified. I think only old women could travel around alone.

You have until eternity to find just one example.

Pardon me, but it sounds a little like you are saying women couldn't do what the Apostles did. It sounds like you are saying that only men were tough enough. It is an interesting point, but I don't think that had anything to do with Jesus choosing only men to be Apostles and priests. The Church is full of women martyrs and great evangelizing saints! In the Acts of the Apostles Lydia was a female merchant of purple clothing, she converted after meeting Paul and went back and converted her household and many others. Really the Church is full of holy examples of women evangelizing from the beginning still to today. You don't need to be a priest or a man to do what the Church is really all about.

Quote: rxwine

FrGamble can you name even one woman who was known for wandering around on her own in that era, who was respected, known and listened to, who could do it as male apostle could, by herself.

I know you asked FrG, but how about Eve? If Adam didn't listen to her, we would all still be living in the Garden if Eden for up to 969 years and all going to Heaven afterward.

Quote: FrGamble

Pardon me, but it sounds a little like you are saying women couldn't do what the Apostles did. It sounds like you are saying that only men were tough enough. It is an interesting point, but I don't think that had anything to do with Jesus choosing only men to be Apostles and priests.

Of course you do because that's the Churches position. Being tough has nothing to do with what each sex faces. Based on what women faced in that era, their job was twice was tough as any man.

If you disagree, I wouldn't be surprised because you haven't supported much logic yet in this argument.

Assuming Jesus was actually smarter than your Pope, and I think he was , he didn't pick them because it would have been much worse and he needed people who could move more freely. He was very practical (more than you appear to be) and picked men. I see no reason he wouldn't pick women if he was doing it today.

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The Church is full of women martyrs and great evangelizing saints! In the Acts of the Apostles Lydia was a female merchant of purple clothing, she converted after meeting Paul and went back and converted her household and many others. Really the Church is full of holy examples of women evangelizing from the beginning still to today. You don't need to be a priest or a man to do what the Church is really all about.

If you're saying this woman had the same freedom as men, I disagree. It's likely she had to conform to circumstances and only if people came within her circle did she try to convert them. Unless maybe she was an old woman.

Quote: Wizard

I know you asked FrG, but how about Eve? If Adam didn't listen to her, we would all still be living in the Garden if Eden for up to 969 years and all going to Heaven afterward.

No doubt a man wrote Genesis. The fix was in.

Anyway, that was before more elaborate and established customs and restrictions on women. I can't really call Eden the era of when Jesus roamed around which is the era women of that time would have to deal with



Btw, my eternity comment was meant to convey FrGamble has all eternity to answer, not eternity to pick from. Maybe that's how you got Eve.

Quote: rxwine

Of course you do because that's the Churches position. Being tough has nothing to do with what each sex faces. Based on what women faced in that era, their job was twice was tough as any man.

I agree with you 100% here. It was you who seemed to be saying that Jesus chose men because they would be able to do something men couldn't, I'm glad you clarified that this was not what you meant.

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If you disagree, I wouldn't be surprised because you haven't supported much logic yet in this argument.

Come on now, let's not get all Evenboby on me.

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He was very practical (more than you appear to be) and picked men. I see no reason he wouldn't pick women if he was doing it today.

Do we know the same Jesus? He was not very practical. Go on this journey and do not take anything with you but a walking stick. Let's gather 5,000 men out in a big field with nothing to feed them with. The whole Martha and Mary story. I think Jesus regardless of the cultural influences knew that women would be great evangelists and they were and are. Why you think it was practical back then to only choose men seems a little sexist to me and overly practical. That is not Jesus' way. He was much more likely to break cultural norms and tell you to trust in God.

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If you're saying this woman had the same freedom as men, I disagree. It's likely she had to conform to circumstances and only if people came within her circle did she try to convert them. Unless maybe she was an old woman.

You should read the story in Acts and tell me what you think. She seems much more free and powerful than you believe is possible back then.