Hey FrGamble!

October 3rd, 2015 at 11:42:26 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Wizard
I'll grant you that you ask a big question of "who/what created all this?" However, I still don't buy god as the only logical answer.

For example, and this is getting out of my area, quantum physics says that matter can spontaneously appear out of nothing, as long as equal anti-matter is created somewhere else. Usually this matter and anti-matter collide and nothing is left. However, what if it happened on a massive scale and all particles flew apart so fast that they couldn't collide. Then you could end up with a universe.

I'm not saying this did happen but is a plausible theory. The more we learn about quantum physics the more we see that anything can happen, especially as we approach absolute zero in temperature.


A couple of things to say here. First, the bet was talking about using reason alone. What we can experience, think about, and know. Matter vs. anti-matter, and this is getting out of my area too, are not observable especially if as you say they collide and nothing is left. I also think we can't get away from the question, "who/what created all this?" Even if to us it seems like things can spontaneously appear out of nothing at the quantum level, which is a very Biblical concept by the way, then it does not reasonably follow that there was nothing that caused that matter to exist. Therefore we could arrive at a universe as you said that is spontaneously created out of nothing but reasonably or logically we need a cause - that is the inescapable mystery of God.

Here we can also posit different viewpoints or understanding of this "God". Some might say that God is an impersonal force, a divine watchmaker, or a loving being who created order throughout the universe. However you understand this concept of "God" the idea is needed for there to be anything at all. It is not reasonable to be an atheist, but it is reasonable to have a concept of God that ultimately doesn't matter to us. A generic impersonal force that is necessary to start everything in motion but has no lasting impact on our lives. This is what I think most atheists really believe. They don't buy into a God who loves them and offers a purpose for life and eternal lasting hope and joy, but they do logically think that the beginning of all things has to have begun with some force/entity/being that is a spiritual, all-powerful, eternal, non-contingent thing. They just have no interest, care, desire, or hope that such a thing can be discovered, understood, or even matters.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 3rd, 2015 at 11:45:24 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
Ask them "what came before the Big Bang?"


Science likes facts. Maybe an infinite number
of big bangs were before the current one.
Science doesn't know yet, but they for sure
won't imply a god was involved just because
they don't have an explanation.

I was watching coverage of the mass shooting
the other day. Somebody mentioned god at
least twice a minute. It's very confusing to an
atheist. A cop is saying an ex soldier was shot
seven times and lived, and the soldiers aunt
said god was looking out for her nephew that day.

What about the 13 who died, some of them
because they admitted they were Christians.
Why wasn't god looking out for them. I heard
this over and over from people who lived, that
god was with them.

If you continue to the logical end, god must have
wanted those who died not to live. If you're a
believer, what other conclusion is there. What's
the point of being a believer if god plays favorites
like this. To an atheist, this is a really messed up
way to live. God has a plan for you, they all say,
and that plan is getting shot by a terrorist? Really?
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 3rd, 2015 at 12:01:33 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Evenbob


I was watching coverage of the mass shooting
the other day. Somebody mentioned god at
least twice a minute. It's very confusing to an
atheist. A cop is saying an ex soldier was shot
seven times and lived, and the soldiers aunt
said god was looking out for her nephew that day.

What about the 13 who died, some of them
because they admitted they were Christians.
Why wasn't god looking out for them. I heard
this over and over from people who lived, that
god was with them.



This is the common atheist retort, "Bad things happen so there must not be a God." This ignores that life is finite. And yes, perhaps God's plan was for them to be killed. All depends on how you think.

Personally I am more than a deist but not quite one who believe every last thing has a divine plan. I am more of one who believe God lets things mostly alone but eventually notices the silly creations are getting themselves in trouble again so he has to straighten things out.

If this is part of a plan, perhaps it is to make people notice the horrible state of help for people with mental health issues. At least in the days of insane asylums there was some help. Today not so. I will say that there are times I feel I have had some kind of divine intervention, keeping me out of trouble I would have been in had I been somewhere I might otherwise have been.
The President is a fink.
October 3rd, 2015 at 12:21:45 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
This is the common atheist retort, "Bad things happen so there must not be a God." .


Not from the smart atheists. Watching
Christians is like watching a really poorly
thought out way to live. They bounce
around like puppets on strings, constantly
wondering what wonderful plan god has
for them, and then having it thrown in
their face that it's your son dying from
a terrorist bullet. Not much of a plan for
the kid or the parent.

Obviously it was random chance that day,
there was no plan involved. The kids were
the victims of the system, having gun free
schools in a time where this kind of violence
happens all the time is lunacy. If there had
been armed trained security at this school,
the shooter would have gone somewhere
else. But they all just thank or blame god
instead of the readily apparent reason,
human stupidity.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 3rd, 2015 at 12:23:09 PM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: AZDuffman
This is because scientists are of a belief that they can figure anything out. Call it an arrogance if you like. But scientists do not like ti be stumped. Ask them "what came before the Big Bang?" Ask them that if matter can neither be created nor destroyed merely transformed then where did it come from and you get shrugs. Genetics and evolution are somewhat incompatible, science has no answer for this.


You only say that because you don't understand the theory of Evolution and Genetics.

They are very compatible.

And scientists don't like to be stumped... that's the very nature of the inquiry... why does something happen? Many a time, the scientist says 'we don't know, here's an idea, lets try it out and see if the data fits or not'.

What came before the Big Bang? I dunno. What was the facotr that created life (abogenisis)? I dunno, but I've seen some pretty interesting ideas.
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die.... it's called Life
October 3rd, 2015 at 12:47:42 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: TheCesspit
You only say that because you don't understand the theory of Evolution and Genetics.


I have had both in science class. But genetics says offspring should emulate their parents. Evolution says offspring will change over time. Incompatible.

Lets not forget, there is zero reason life should just happen. A planet exists with no life forms. All of the sudden there are life forms. How is this possible?

As to the "interesting ideas" I have to say I have zero intellectual respect for those who deny any form of intelligent design as being possible. This type says to have an open mind, but in this area their mind snaps shut.
The President is a fink.
October 3rd, 2015 at 1:10:10 PM permalink
TheCesspit
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 23
Posts: 1929
Quote: AZDuffman
I have had both in science class. But genetics says offspring should emulate their parents. Evolution says offspring will change over time. Incompatible.


Emulate does not mean copy. Not incompatible at all. Like I just said, you don't understand it. Genetic drift happens, and can be shown. Genetics doesn't copy parents straight up.
Quote:

Lets not forget, there is zero reason life should just happen. A planet exists with no life forms. All of the sudden there are life forms. How is this possible?


This is the study of abogenesis. It's really quite interesting, and there's several theories there. I don't think there's a single 'right' answer being posited yet. Evolution, remember, makes no claims about the origin of life.

Quote:
As to the "interesting ideas" I have to say I have zero intellectual respect for those who deny any form of intelligent design as being possible. This type says to have an open mind, but in this area their mind snaps shut.


Nope. No snapping shut at all. It's possible, but the evidence just isn't there to support it. It's like claiming that we only stick to the ground due to little sticky molecules. You can consider it, then reject it after looking at it for a while. Rejecting a theory is not snapping shut. It's quite often saying 'I'm not wasting any more time on your ideas without something new to show'. See: TimeCube and Terryology, as well.

There's plenty of evidence for Darwin's theories. I'll go with the bulk of evidence. But I am sure the ID researchers are working away to show a credible counter argument for ID, beyond 'God did it'. I await that paper... I've not seen it yet, and I've read a few. Most have large holes in their logic, or an absence of scientific process.
It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die.... it's called Life
October 3rd, 2015 at 1:56:19 PM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: TheCesspit
Emulate does not mean copy. Not incompatible at all. Like I just said, you don't understand it. Genetic drift happens, and can be shown. Genetics doesn't copy parents straight up.


No, it does not copy. But fish do not give birth to frogs and then frogs to rats. And while genetic drift may happen, what is causing it?


Quote:
Nope. No snapping shut at all. It's possible, but the evidence just isn't there to support it. It's like claiming that we only stick to the ground due to little sticky molecules. You can consider it, then reject it after looking at it for a while. Rejecting a theory is not snapping shut.


The haters have snapped shut on Intelligent Design. I actually enjoy seeing how foolish they look, demanding an open mind while having a closed one. Evidence is indeed there, I have presented some reasons here, and the answer was "I do not understand" something when I raise a legit question. A variation of the "four legs good, two legs bad" I get when I dare question AGW.

Quote:
There's plenty of evidence for Darwin's theories. I'll go with the bulk of evidence. But I am sure the ID researchers are working away to show a credible counter argument for ID, beyond 'God did it'. I await that paper... I've not seen it yet, and I've read a few. Most have large holes in their logic, or an absence of scientific process.


There is evidence that life did evolve, there is far less on *why* it evolved. And the "why" is key. Atheists demand that if it was not exactly like the Bible says then it must be false. Thinking people realize that much of the Bible is allegorical stories not meant to be literal.

The problem arises that the human mind has a hard time accepting "infinite." There are more numbers between 2 and 4 than between 2 and 3. We know this because 4>3. However, because there is an infinite number of numbers between any two numbers, there are the same number of numbers between both. Almost everybody who has made it through Algebra I knows this, but getting your mind around it is something more.

Same as with all matter. While we can assume the Big Bang made the universe, what was there right before it? Even if we assume that it happened because over time a former universe compressed to the point it had enough energy to explode, what was there before that?

You must deny that anything was ever created. Since nothing creates itself this is the only way you can deny a God exists. Do you deny anything was ever created?
The President is a fink.
October 3rd, 2015 at 2:07:47 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: AZDuffman
The haters have snapped shut on Intelligent Design.


The 'haters', really? The problem with god,
is, it's a concept you arrive at when all other
avenues have been exhausted. Saying it's a
god is the same as saying you don't know
the answer and throwing up your hands in
defeat. Design is the same as creation, you
think you see a design so you go looking
for a designer. How about some evidence
that it's a design at all, then carry on from
there.

You have such evidence?
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 3rd, 2015 at 6:02:00 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
Posts: 7596
Quote: Evenbob
The problem with god,
is, it's a concept you arrive at when all other
avenues have been exhausted. Saying it's a
god is the same as saying you don't know
the answer and throwing up your hands in
defeat.


The problem is you continue to say this when it is not true. God is the ultimate answer to the biggest question. Why is there something rather than nothing? How did matter or energy come into being? This is the only satisfying answer and if you would open your mind enough to acknowledge that you would also see that you need not then immediately become a Christian if you do not want to. God, as an eternal, all-powerful, spiritual being, simply provides the only reasonable answer to the reality of life we live. How you define, understand, worship, ignore, love, or hate this God is totally up to you. However to deny that there is such a force or entity as God is to live in La La land.


Quote:
How about some evidence
that it's a design at all, then carry on from
there.

You have such evidence?


I am quite sure that Duffman can provide you with such evidence, but what you are seeking is some type of smoking gun. In the real world evidence builds up and leads us in a certain direction. Only in the courtroom or laboratory does it force us in one direction. Life is all about making choices based on what you believe the evidence is telling us. If all you mean by evidence is mathematical or scientific proof than outside of your algebra class you will not find it - for God, intelligent design, the love of a spouse, that I am a real person, or atheism.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (