Hey FrGamble!

October 2nd, 2015 at 5:57:17 PM permalink
Wizard
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Member since: Oct 23, 2012
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Quote: Evenbob
You do realize you can't make god exist with
clever reasoning, right? If that were possible,
there would be no atheists.


This is a bet I'm not expecting to win but want to see FrG give it his best shot.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
October 2nd, 2015 at 5:58:55 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
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Quote: Wizard
This is a bet I'm not expecting to win but want to see FrG give it his best shot.


He'll just point at the sunset and say
'god made that' and we'll all get baptized
tomorrow. That's about the depth of
their argument.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 2nd, 2015 at 7:32:28 PM permalink
Wizard
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Quote: Evenbob
He'll just point at the sunset and say
'god made that' and we'll all get baptized
tomorrow. That's about the depth of
their argument.


We'll see. I'm sure he has a homily to prepare but I'm expecting to be inspired by FrG's response in due time. I'll bet another $1 that it will be better than the "sunset" argument.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
October 2nd, 2015 at 8:26:49 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote: Wizard
We'll see. I'm sure he has a homily to prepare but I'm expecting to be inspired by FrG's response in due time. I'll bet another $1 that it will be better than the "sunset" argument.


Not really. Most Christian arguments will say,
just look around, you're surrounded by
evidence of a god. Or that somehow the
big bang points to a god. Or that a god
makes sense. Or there was a creation and
who did that.

None of these arguments are evidence of a
god, unless you want them to be. Evidence
of something that doesn't exist isn't possible,
but that doesn't stop the stubborn. Or those
with an agenda, like organized religion has.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 2nd, 2015 at 8:35:50 PM permalink
Wizard
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The ball is in FrG's court. I'm sure he will do better than sunset=god.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
October 2nd, 2015 at 10:36:44 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 67
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Quote: Wizard
Can you lead us through that?


Okay, I just got back to my room and saw this. As I understand the bet I am to lead us through an argument showing God's existence through reason alone. Two clarifications. I will take up the challenge to really just use our reason and not bring in all the evidence modern cosmology has for an expanding universe, the Big Bang, and the strong consensus that the universe is shown by science to have a beginning. Using this makes the argument almost too easy. I will reserve myself to just using reason outside of the observations of modern science. I also am proving God exists as we all commonly understand that concept. The Christian idea of God requires revelation and is not deduced by reason alone.

Okay, the first step is to recognize that everything that exists did not create itself. This is obvious with us as human beings, we know we came from somewhere we have parents who have parents, etc. The same thing follows for other living beings. We also know this in regards to tools or other things we use. They were put together using already existing materials or shaped by us. Using our reason we can understand that things like rocks or water also do not create themselves. Therefore when we look at ourselves and the world around us we realize that everything is contingent on something else for its existence.

This seems harmless enough of a truth. However, if we think about it too long it causes huge problems. If this rock did not create itself how did it come to be? Was it part of a larger rock that it broke off of, was that larger rock part of a bigger rock still, was that huge rock the product of great heat and pressure of other materials, where did those materials come from, back and back we go. We can do the same thing with us as human beings. We can trace our lineage back to the beginning, to the beginning of life on this planet, but then we can go back further to the star dust that makes us up, but where did that come from? We run into the serious problem of an actual infinite regress.

You see if anything exists than there must have been an absolute beginning to it all. You have to be careful here. You cannot just posit God at this point, because we need to be clear that this is not just another thing, because if it was it doesn't solve the problem of the infinite regress. If God was just the oldest thing we could then just ask ourselves, "Then who created God?" No, our reason tells us that this "God" must be a unique non-contingent being. This means God as we understand that concept must be the essence of being, an entity that has being in itself and does not need to be created by anything else, an eternal being without beginning or end.

Before a flag is thrown claiming that reason alone cannot come up with such a being let me argue that it is forced to. There is no other option. Some claim that maybe things had no beginning, that things are eternal. The problem is that is a logical impossibility. If we keep being able to go back and back infinitely as to what came before us than that is the same thing as saying there is no beginning. If there is no beginning to things that obviously are contingent beings then we are left with the paradox of existence. If there is no firm foundation on which rests all things then all things would fall into the void or abyss without anything to hold them up or give them existence. Again the only solution is that there is something firm, a being that holds all existence in itself that is non-contingent (meaning that it alone is eternal and uncreated). This is usually the point where some people get lost. They still are asking, "why is God an exception to the rule that everything has a beginning?" The answer is that God is a necessary exception, required by reason itself, because without God than nothing would exist. It is obvious that things exist and therefore in order to make sense of our existence and that of the universe. Imagine trying to understand who you were or where you came from if you had no parents? They are the foundation for your existence, but they need a foundation too and so forth and so forth. If there was not something that gave existence to all things at the very beginning who had no beginning or end than you also would not exist because there would be nothing in the infinite regress that could stand firm on anything before it.

There is more that we can use our reason to discover about this being. One, we know it must be spiritual. The material world is obviously contingent. Matter or stuff does not hold existence in itself. Material things by their very existence are limited and a non-contingent being cannot be limited. Speaking of unlimited this being must also be all-powerful. If everything that has ever existed, exists now, or will ever exist can trace its beginning back to this God than it must be all-powerful in the fullest sense of that word. These things reason alone can show us without doubt. There are other things, such as the complexity of God and/or the intelligence of God, that reason I think points to but they cannot be deduced without some obstacles.

So even though it is late and I am falling asleep at the keyboard I know this is my best chance this weekend to attempt to win this bet for the Wizard.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
October 2nd, 2015 at 11:39:45 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 146
Posts: 25010
Quote:
Okay, the first step is to recognize that everything that exists did not create itself.


And that's the whole of your argument. You
think you see a creation, so you conveniently
invent a creator. That's what the rest of your
post is about. There is a far bigger possibility
that the universe has always been here and
will always be here, in one form or another.

The big bang makes it almost too easy? I
don't think so. How many big bangs have
there been. An infinite number? This is
discussed at length in the Hindu religion,
that the universe rebirths itself over and
over, and us with it. And their religion is
the oldest on earth by a thousand years.

There is no evidence of a god, not a shred.
It's funny, I was watching an old movie just
now and a doctor was talking to a priest
about morality, and the doctor says, scratch
a man of science and you'll likely find an
atheist. I chuckled at the irony that we are
discussing that very thing.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
October 3rd, 2015 at 4:27:33 AM permalink
Nareed
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 346
Posts: 12545
Quote: Wizard
I'll take the $1 bet. Do me proud, Padre!


Would you care to pay in advance?
Donald Trump is a one-term LOSER
October 3rd, 2015 at 5:33:57 AM permalink
AZDuffman
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 18136
Quote: Evenbob


There is no evidence of a god, not a shred.
It's funny, I was watching an old movie just
now and a doctor was talking to a priest
about morality, and the doctor says, scratch
a man of science and you'll likely find an
atheist. I chuckled at the irony that we are
discussing that very thing.


This is because scientists are of a belief that they can figure anything out. Call it an arrogance if you like. But scientists do not like ti be stumped. Ask them "what came before the Big Bang?" Ask them that if matter can neither be created nor destroyed merely transformed then where did it come from and you get shrugs. Genetics and evolution are somewhat incompatible, science has no answer for this.

But the arrogance comes into play when you suggest there is a God driving things, usually because atheists hate saying there is a power greater than themselves. I have seen it on this board. They will not even allow for "Mother Nature" as the greater power. kind of amusing to watch, actually. People who say you should have an open mind having anything but when it suits their needs.
The President is a fink.
October 3rd, 2015 at 6:56:15 AM permalink
Wizard
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Member since: Oct 23, 2012
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I'll grant you that you ask a big question of "who/what created all this?" However, I still don't buy god as the only logical answer.

For example, and this is getting out of my area, quantum physics says that matter can spontaneously appear out of nothing, as long as equal anti-matter is created somewhere else. Usually this matter and anti-matter collide and nothing is left. However, what if it happened on a massive scale and all particles flew apart so fast that they couldn't collide. Then you could end up with a universe.

I'm not saying this did happen but is a plausible theory. The more we learn about quantum physics the more we see that anything can happen, especially as we approach absolute zero in temperature.
Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber