Hey FrGamble!

FrG, first you say:

"Jesus in His humanity suffered and eventually died as we would experience it ourselves."

Then you say:

"Christ's knowledge of His divinity was grasped through the limitations of His human intellect."

If his grasp was the same as yours
and mine, he knew he was divine
and he knew he was god and he
knew he would come out on the
other end of this perfectly OK.
The priests in Catholic Digest say
Jesus 'had a full understanding
of his divinity' when he was baptized.

All that being true in the myth, there
was no real sacrifice. Xtians don't
really want to discuss this, it's makes
them squirm in discomfort. When I
was in the Xtian group, nobody ever
mentioned that 100K+ people were
crucified. I was led to believe it was
just Jesus and the two thieves. It's
left out on purpose. The religion
loves to give the impression that
Jesus died in a special way. Not
a way that was totally common for
the time.

A real sacrifice would have been Jesus
was sent here as the son of a god to
live for 200 years and preach and have many
wives and offspring. But he decided
to give all that up and die for man's
sins. That would be a good myth.

As it is, sacrifice means giving something
up, something that means a lot to you.
He gave up his life, but he was
old for the times he lived in, it's not
like he was going to live till he was 100.
He suffered the same as the
other 100K people suffered, only he
suffered less because he knew he
was divine. Or so the myth claims.

He knew He was God with His human intellect. I don't quite get how you jump to He also understood perfectly in His human knowledge that everything would be perfectly okay. He trusted in God and believed that the promises of the OT would be fulfilled, but He in His human understanding didn't have a vision of the future. You have to keep remembering that He was fully human. His faith and trust in God and His love for humanity is what enabled Him to endure His passion and death. I think you are equating "full knowledge of His divnity" to mean He possessed the full understanding or knowledge of God. That is not the case if one is to be fully human with a fully human intellect. He had faith, but not foreknowledge. It is one of the reasons that His perfect trust and obedience redeem us in our humanity. If He was to save humanity, it had to be in a truly human way, embracing our limitations and yet still trusting in God.

You seem to think He was God taking human form, but not really being human. That is not true.

In regards to your strange experience with a few Christians who didn't know the history of crucifixion, I don't know what to tell you. It is not at all representative of any Christian I know. Crucifixion was the worst way the Romans could kill someone and knowing the Romans they probably did it a lot.

Quote: FrGamble

He knew He was God with His human intellect. I don't quite get how you jump to He also understood perfectly in His human knowledge that everything would be perfectly okay.

"We believe he would have had full knowledge of his divinity by the time of his Baptism by John the Baptist, since his divine nature was revealed by the voice from heaven." Catholic Digest

'Full knowledge of his divinity'. That means
he knew 100% that he was divine.

divine: god. the godhead; god himself

So in the myth, even with the pitiful
amount of human intellect you seem
to think he had, he at least knew he
was god and couldn't really die. He
had full knowledge of his divinity,
right? So again, where is the sacrifice
if you know you're god and cannot
die. You don't need to know the future,
all you need to know is you're god.

If you know you can't really die, giving
up your life is NOT a sacrifice. The
guy who smothers the grenade, he
made a sacrifice. Jesus sacrificed
nothing, no matter which way you
spin it. And indeed, in the myth he's
up three days later,
walking and talking with his friends.
Where is the sacrifice.

I know you totally understand where
I'm coming from. You don't really
know where the sacrifice is either,
but you're totally invested in the
program so you just take the
Churches word there was one. Don't
fell alone, no other Xtian has ever
explained it either. All they have
is thin arguments that make no
sense.

Quote:

and knowing the Romans they probably did it a lot.

Probably? They didn't cover this in
detail in seminary? There is a ton
of recorded history by lots of
sources at the time that the
Romans crucified 10's of thousands
over a 200 year period. I'm sure
your teachers glossed it over
because it makes the death of
Jesus look very ordinary. Which
at the time, it was.

Quote: FrGamble

Because the human intellect is limited.

Wait wait wait - he could comprehend and know that he was God Almighty despite having a limited intellect?

Quote: FrGamble

He completely understood God's plan through the Old Testament and trusted in it fully.

I don't quite see any bending of logic here.

Wait wait wait again - he could completely understand "God's plan" -- since you claim Jesus was God, why would he have to even understand anything, it would be knowledge internal to him

Additionally, if he knew of the plan, why scream out asking God why he forsake him? You claim Jesus was God, so, isn't he merely forsaking himself?



EB - am I not thinking logically here?

So when God was on earth as Jesus he was human since as you stated he a had a limited human intellect. Who was minding the store when God was human with his limited intellect. Pretty ballsy plan, how was GOD so sure he that he could regain all his Godly power after his human bodied died.

Quote: aceofspades

Wait wait wait - he could comprehend and know that he was God Almighty despite having a limited intellect?

Yes he could comprehend that He was God, but obviously He in His human intellect couldn't know all that God knows. Human beings are not omniscent.

Quote:

Wait wait wait again - he could completely understand "God's plan" -- since you claim Jesus was God, why would he have to even understand anything, it would be knowledge internal to him

He knew He was God but He trusted in God's plan and the OT prophecies in the same way I trust in God's plan and the New Testament. Of course His faith and trust in God was perfect and mine is not, but that might help you to understand this. You and other criticize my faith in Jesus Christ who I believe in God. That faith is the same faith that Jesus had in God's plan. As EB and others like to point out I have to depend on faith that is reasoned and supported by evidence to come to my belief in Jesus Christ, but I don't have some mathematical proof. My belief in Jesus Christ is God is not the logical necessity that general belief in God or in some higher power is. Likewise Jesus' faith in God's plan and His perfect obedience and trust in His heavenly Father doesn't mean that He has already seen the outcome or has some certain proof.

Quote:

Additionally, if he knew of the plan, why scream out asking God why he forsake him? You claim Jesus was God, so, isn't he merely forsaking himself?

This and many other moments in Jesus' life and teaching point to this perfect human faith that Jesus had, but a faith that didn't come with some type of divine perfect knowledge of God's plan. In His humanity He prayed that this cup of suffering would pass Him by but accepted the Will of God. It might also be good to remember that Jesus on the cross is quoting Psalm 22, a psalm of a trusting suffering servant. Finally, I think you can also begin to see the uniqueness of the Most Holy Trinity and the nature of God through Jesus' many prayers throughout the Gospels.

Quote:

EB - am I not thinking logically here?

I do think that you are both asking logical questions and important ones that speak into the natures of Christ and the field of theology called Christology. I really hope that it is helpful to you both to learn how the Church and Christianity have prayed upon and wrestled with these important questions guided by the Holy Spirit and Scriptures to find the answers God has revealed.

Quote: kenarman

So when God was on earth as Jesus he was human since as you stated he a had a limited human intellect. Who was minding the store when God was human with his limited intellect. Pretty ballsy plan, how was GOD so sure he that he could regain all his Godly power after his human bodied died.

Another good question. Remember that in Christian theology God is Trinity. The second person of the Most Holy Trinity became incarnate. It is a pretty "ballsy" plan (maybe not how I would phrase it). You are speaking into the struggle of the Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ, in not knowing but trusting and having faith in God. Even if this did mean God Himself would lose everything, a sacrifice unimaginable for any of us, He was still willing to lay down His life for us!

Quote: FrGamble

Another good question. Remember that in Christian theology God is Trinity. The second person of the Most Holy Trinity became incarnate. It is a pretty "ballsy" plan (maybe not how I would phrase it). You are speaking into the struggle of the Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ, in not knowing but trusting and having faith in God. Even if this did mean God Himself would lose everything, a sacrifice unimaginable for any of us, He was still willing to lay down His life for us!

Are the holly trinity stages of God or do they all exist simultaneously?

Quote: Evenbob

he at least knew he
was god and couldn't really die. He
had full knowledge of his divinity,
right?

Here you are running close to realizing the unimaginable depth of His sacrifice. You are assuming that because He knew He was God that His human understanding in His incarnation as fully human was that He couldn't die. Who of us as human beings thinks they cannot die and are not scared of death? Knowing you are God and that you can die only adds to the amount of faith and trust required to lay down your life for sinful humanity. Why can't the second person of the Most Holy Trinity suffer and die? How is Jesus Christ to know that He cannot die, He is fully human? He trusted in God that no matter what He would be obedient to His Heavenly Father and fulfill the Old Testament. I promise you if you read Genesis chapter 22 about Abraham and Issac you will better understand what is really going on here.

Quote:

Probably? They didn't cover this in
detail in seminary? There is a ton
of recorded history by lots of
sources at the time that the
Romans crucified 10's of thousands
over a 200 year period. I'm sure
your teachers glossed it over
because it makes the death of
Jesus look very ordinary. Which
at the time, it was.

I agree with you that there are thousands of crucifixions in recorded history. You probably know this already, but there is only one archaeological find that speaks to crucifixion in the time of the Romans. Which I find strange as I am sure you do. Regardless, I believe as you do that crucifixion was done and it was the most brutal, painful, and humiliating way the Romans (who were very good at killing people) could conceive of killing people.

Quote: kenarman

Are the holly trinity stages of God or do they all exist simultaneously?

There are no stages. They all exist simultaneously.