Original Sin?

Quote: Dalex64

Discovering has evidence. Without it, it is just a thought experiment, wishful thinking, or faith.

Faith requires evidence too or it is blind faith. Blind faith is a very bad thing. Blind faith is like an atheist making a definitive claim that they believe there is no God. They have no evidence, no logic, no science, no personal experience, no miracles, no testimony, nothing. Faith in God, which you may disagree with, at least it has all those things mentioned above as evidence. Please do not lump faith together with blind faith or wishful thinking - they could not be more different.

double

Quote: Dalex64

My knowledge of what "god is not" is simply that I don't believe that anyone knows what god is.

Okay, so it is not that we can't know what or who God is, it is just that you don't think anyone is correct about God. Does this mean that someone could get it right? What would that look like to you or how do you think someone could get it right about God? Is there a chance someone could get lucky like a blind squirrel finding nuts or do you think whoever or whatever God is that God's divine assistance would be required if we have any chance of knowing God?

Quote:

If you fear and dispair a world without your religion as fatalistic or tortuous, or somehow unfulfilling if we just "end" when we die, that is on you, not me. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't bother a lot of people. You should stop projecting your beliefs and fears on to other people, and stop thinking you know how I feel or express disbelief that I can possibly believe what I do.

I don't really know where this came from in our discussion about God's existence, maybe you are projecting. I would love to get into these questions and the reason for my hope, but we have to first arrive at some common ground as to if we have any chance of knowing anything about this God we both acknowledge exists. Is your position that we CAN NOT know anything about what God is or is not?

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Argument from incredulity is another one of those big logical fallacies.

Yes it is. Are you arguing because you are incredulous that anyone does truly know anything about God that it is impossible to do so?

Quote: FrGamble

Faith requires evidence too or it is blind faith. .

Then you must have blind faith, because so
far all the 'evidence' you've produced is
just conjecture, guessing, and hope. Faith
didn't used to be a dirty word, you know.
Christians were proud they only had faith
to go on, it gave them strength. It's only
been the last 50 years that the reliance
on phony 'evidence' has come up. It came
with the arrival of so many doubters, who
threatened to leave the 'faith' unless they
had something more tangible.

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Is your position that we CAN NOT know anything about what God is or is not?

God does not exist, and anything you know is
just something you make up. What's the point
of that, it's just religious self abuse..

Faith has never been a dirty word. It is the most important thing we do as humans. Without faith based on evidence we could never love, move, or make any decisions. There is a difference between knowledge that is proved, faith that is reasonable, and blind faith which is based on nothing. The fact that you continue to persist in your blind faith and not even acknowledge the evidence for faith in God is just confirmation that you have nothing but wishful thinking to support your denial of God's existence.

Quote: FrGamble

Faith has never been a dirty word.

All religious faith is blind faith because religious faith
based on real evidence isn't faith anymore,
it's knowledge. I don't trust my cars breaks
will work on faith, I trust because I know the
mechanics and I trust the people who built
them. In religion no such trust can exist
because all you have is the word of others,
which is based on nothing. You're jumping
from a plane not knowing if your chute will
open or fail, but having faith it work properly.

Quote:

Is your position that we CAN NOT know anything about what God is or is not?

God does not exist, and anything you know is
just something you make up. What's the point
of that, it's just religious self abuse..

Oh Bob, you don't know your brakes will work - you know how brakes work. Before you go driving you don't inspect every hose, line, and caliper - you just drive and have faith that when you push the pedal the car brakes. It is reasonable faith based on lots of evidence and past experience but you drive by faith.

Your example of the parachute is even better. You know how a parachute works but you have faith it will work when you jump out of the plane. You have faith the person gave you the right backpack and what is in there is a chute you cannot see. You have lots of evidence and you trust the person who gave you the chute, the company is trustworthy, maybe you jumped before, but the only thing that makes you jump is faith, well grounded faith. There is no guarantee that the chute will open or that there even is one, but that doesn't stop you from jumping out on NOT blind faith but reasonable faith. I have faith in you that you will see the difference.

Quote: FrGamble

Oh Bob, you don't know your brakes will work - you know how brakes work.

That is correct, I know the science, I trust
the science and the people who built the
brakes. There is no science in religion to
trust, it's all hearsay. It's all he said-she said.
It's crap somebody wrote down millennia
ago, I have zero verification if any of it is
true. I don't even have my Uncle Harry
who died in 1956 and came back to tell
me, yup, son, all of the religious stuff is true,
I'm in heaven with Jesus and having a great
time.

All you have is a big fat pile of zero evidence,
and that's what you hitch your wagon too. Some
of us need a little more than that..

Quote: FrGamble

Okay, so it is not that we can't know what or who God is, it is just that you don't think anyone is correct about God. Does this mean that someone could get it right? What would that look like to you or how do you think someone could get it right about God? Is there a chance someone could get lucky like a blind squirrel finding nuts or do you think whoever or whatever God is that God's divine assistance would be required if we have any chance of knowing God?

I don't really know where this came from in our discussion about God's existence, maybe you are projecting. I would love to get into these questions and the reason for my hope, but we have to first arrive at some common ground as to if we have any chance of knowing anything about this God we both acknowledge exists. Is your position that we CAN NOT know anything about what God is or is not?

Yes it is. Are you arguing because you are incredulous that anyone does truly know anything about God that it is impossible to do so?

Re-read your own arguments to see argument from incredulity. You can't imagine how any rational logical person won't reach the same conclusion as you about the existence of god. You imagine how awful and filled with despair our lives would be without god, therefore it can't be correct.

Yes, I believe that if anyone's ideas about god are correct, a blind squirrel finding a nut or even a broken clock is right twice a day are good analogies.

Yes, I believe we can not know about god, unless the situation changes. Setting aside the lack of a link between the beliefs developed by people and the creator of all existence, there is no way to differentiate, or validate, any set of beliefs against any other. Since there is no way to do that, there also is no way to know who has the right ideas and who doesn't. Since we can't do that, we can't know anything about god except by dumb luck, and there is also no way to know if anyone even has one single thing right.

If you want to contemplate and pray, individually and collectively, and say your thoughts are guided by god, feel free. I say you are just building a human consensus with nothing divine happening at all.

If you want to then point at those ideas and say, look how good they are for society, look at the big questions they answer, therefore god is real and we are correct - that is circular logic.

Quote: Evenbob

That is correct, I know the science, I trust
the science and the people who built the
brakes.

You have faith in them and so do I.

Quote:

All you have is a big fat pile of zero evidence,
and that's what you hitch your wagon too. Some
of us need a little more than that..

Apparently all you need is a big fat pile of nothing, that is what you have hitched your wagon to. I need a lot more than that and have tried to explain to you, to no avail, of what evidence I have. We are both jumping out of planes, I have a parachute that I have faith in, you have nothing.