Original Sin?

August 16th, 2019 at 6:18:31 AM permalink
Tanko
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 0
Posts: 147
Quote: Dalex64
C. There is nothing that links something not subject to the laws of the physical universe to any "god" ....n


Then what created the universe?

You don’t know. Which is only one reason why anyone who cannot answer that question should claim to be an atheist and deny the possible existence of something that is not subject to the laws of the physical universe.

We know the universe had a beginning and did not always exist.

We know it has not existed long enough to convert all energy into heat energy.

We know it could not have been created, since energy cannot be created.

Yet it was created.

The only thing that could have created it, is something not subject to the laws of the physical universe.
August 16th, 2019 at 7:50:30 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3160
Quote: Tanko
Then what created the universe?

You don’t know. Which is only one reason why anyone who cannot answer that question should claim to be an atheist and deny the possible existence of something that is not subject to the laws of the physical universe.

We know the universe had a beginning and did not always exist.

We know it has not existed long enough to convert all energy into heat energy.

We know it could not have been created, since energy cannot be created.

Yet it was created.

The only thing that could have created it, is something not subject to the laws of the physical universe.


Did I say a "god" didn't create the universe?

I agree wholeheartedly that I don't know. And that you don't know. Like I said in point B, that is not licence to supply an explanation of your choosing and claim it as fact.

Since you focused on my point C, what is it that makes you believe that the god(s) I assume you believe in had anything to do with the creation that you claim happened?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 16th, 2019 at 8:59:30 AM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 64
Posts: 6998
Dalex I think the first step is in recognizing that there is something beyond our comprehension, something truly eternal and supernatural that is the cause of all that exists. The second step is in recognizing we have and could have no idea what this is. The third step is believing in revelation as the only way we could know anything of God or the creator of all things. We are dependent on God to reveal what it is to us, that is the only way to answer this question and that takes religious faith. You can see there is a big step between 2 and 3. However you will notice that there is no reason or way that any thinking person could say that there is nothing that created the universe or that this something is just part of the universe. The big step you are talking about is not from atheism to religious faith but from agnosticism to religion.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 16th, 2019 at 9:20:52 AM permalink
Dalex64
Member since: Mar 8, 2014
Threads: 3
Posts: 3160
Quote: FrGamble
Dalex I think the first step is in recognizing that there is something beyond our comprehension, something truly eternal and supernatural that is the cause of all that exists. The second step is in recognizing we have and could have no idea what this is. The third step is believing in revelation as the only way we could know anything of God or the creator of all things. We are dependent on God to reveal what it is to us, that is the only way to answer this question and that takes religious faith. You can see there is a big step between 2 and 3. However you will notice that there is no reason or way that any thinking person could say that there is nothing that created the universe or that this something is just part of the universe. The big step you are talking about is not from atheism to religious faith but from agnosticism to religion.


I run into problems right there with your first step.

I agree that it is something that is beyond our comprehension. Afterall, if we understood it, we wouldn't be filling in our own explanations and claiming them to be true. We wouldn't be trying to use philosophy and logic to come up with a logical explanation to something which can not be explained.

What makes it "truly eternal?" It could have "died" giving birth to us. It could have taken that moment to "transform" into the big bang. There could be nothing left.


What requires it to be sentient, or even alive?


Step 3 is circular reasoning. you believe that god exists because you believe that a revelation given by god to people stating that god exists is true. You believe in your religion in particular because your religion revealed itself to you by itself to be the one true religion. Guess what? Everyone else's did that too.

Don't expect me to take this much further with you. We have discussed it all ad nauseam before.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynihan
August 16th, 2019 at 11:11:59 AM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 20036
Quote: Tanko


The universe did not always exist. If it always existed, then time would be infinite.


You're talking about the galaxies, which
you think of as 'the universe'. The place
where the galaxies exist is the actual
universe and has obviously been here
forever. We understand only a fraction
of what's going on, and you'd think
it's time to put aside fairy tale explanations
invented by wondering uneducated nomads
thousands of years ago and find out the
truth. Alas, we're lazy at best and it's just
too easy to take the path of least resistance.
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 16th, 2019 at 11:52:46 AM permalink
aceofspades
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 74
Posts: 1561
Quote: FrGamble
Dalex I think the first step is in recognizing that there is something currently beyond our comprehension, something truly eternal and supernatural that is the cause of all that exists. The second step is in recognizing we have and could have no idea what this is. The third step is believing in revelation as the only way we could know anything of God or the creator of all things. We are dependent on God to reveal what it is to us, that is the only way to answer this question and that takes religious faith. You can see there is a big step between 2 and 3. However you will notice that there is no reason or way that any thinking person could say that there is nothing that created the universe or that this something is just part of the universe. The big step you are talking about is not from atheism to religious faith but from agnosticism to religion.


FTFY
August 16th, 2019 at 12:43:10 PM permalink
Evenbob
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 135
Posts: 20036
FTFY

[fixed that for you)
If you take a risk, you may lose. If you never take a risk, you will always lose.
August 16th, 2019 at 12:56:30 PM permalink
FrGamble
Member since: Oct 24, 2012
Threads: 64
Posts: 6998
Quote: Dalex64
I run into problems right there with your first step.

I agree that it is something that is beyond our comprehension.


Maybe it would be best to just stay here then instead of going into religious faith. Let me just say that I think you are right that every religious believer feels that the truth has been revealed to them and it is important to analyze and look deeply at your faith and others as well. Many are a-historical or logically inconsistent or violent or do not help someone or the testimonies and personal experiences of other; these could all be ways to determine if a faith is true or not. However as you said we have been down this road before.

Your points are well taken about since something is beyond our comprehension we on our own don't know if some impersonal supreme force created the universe or it ceased to exist after creation. I think we can get some clues as to the existing universe itself in regards to order and beauty but we could debate that as well. My point really is that it is clear that something "beyond our comprehension", something supernatural created our universe. For those without religious faith it all goes dark after that in regards to what this was. However, something supernatural exists or existed. That is an essential part of the mystery of existence to understand and where you go with that is up to you.

By the way I find it very naive to think that we could ever understand this supernatural force/being/God on our own. It is clearly beyond our comprehension as Dalex said. It is hubris to think that we could ever understand something we have no way of seeing or even knowing about, unless of course this creator made itself known to us.
“It is with the smallest brushes that the artist paints the most exquisitely beautiful pictures.” (
August 17th, 2019 at 1:48:35 AM permalink
Tanko
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 0
Posts: 147
Quote: Dalex64
Did I say a "god" didn't create the universe?

I agree wholeheartedly that I don't know. And that you don't know. Like I said in point B, that is not licence to supply an explanation of your choosing and claim it as fact.

Since you focused on my point C, what is it that makes you believe that the god(s) I assume you believe in had anything to do with the creation that you claim happened?


Why not provide an explanation of creation that contradicts the laws of the physical universe, when those same laws are contradicted by the existence of the universe itself?

First Law of Thermodynamics: “Energy cannot be created or destroyed.”

Yet, the universe exists.

Michio Kaku
August 17th, 2019 at 2:03:27 AM permalink
Tanko
Member since: Aug 15, 2019
Threads: 0
Posts: 147
Quote: Evenbob
You're talking about the galaxies, which
you think of as 'the universe'. The place
where the galaxies exist is the actual
universe and has obviously been here
forever. ...it's time to put aside fairy tale explanations
invented by wondering uneducated nomads...


Wrong.

Galaxies exist within the universe. Just as we do.

The universe is everything that exists.

“The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, and all other forms of matter and energy.”- Wikipedia

“Universe, the whole cosmic system of matter and energy of which Earth, and therefore the human race, is a part.” -Brittanica

How do you know it has been here forever?

The greatest minds in history haven’t figured that out. How did you?

What do you base your opinion on?

If it existed long enough, it would have been completely converted into heat energy due to entropy. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

The laws of physics are not fairytale explanations invented by ‘wondering uneducated nomads’.