Science and God

Quote: FrGamble

I can't wrap my mind around it because it doesn't make sense .

It makes perfect sense to me, but I
haven't been brainwashed. Do you
know in some parts of the world capitalism
is looked at as evil, and there is no way
of convincing them it's not. You think
capitalism is fine, you live it, you grew
up in it, you see it working. I know a
smart guy in Venezuela who even now,
with his socialist country crumbling
around him, would rater die than become
a capitalistic. Just because that's he was
taught that it's evil all his life.

That the universe has been here forever
will never make sense to you, it can't
fit in your paradigm. It would destroy all
you believe in.

Quote: Evenbob

Everything is the result of random chance,
there is no cause or reason behind anything
on the basic level.

You seem to be saying that random chance is the cause. Of course that isn't really a cause is it? Are you saying that everything just is and we should just deal with it? If there is no cause or reason behind everything you undermine science and you deflate the ingenious curiosity of humanity. Why should we care if everything is just random chance with no reason behind it. If it isn't ordered and follow strict rules what is to say that this randomness will rear its ugly head again and mess everything up?

Quote:

This is what the evolution
of random chance over eternity looks like.

Here again you run into a major problem with the eternal existence of matter. Let's put aside the 2nd law of thermodynamics, let's also put aside that there is no evidence or logical argument to support the eternal existence of matter. Even then you still have to explain how if the random processes of evolution have had literally forever to work on this eternal material stuff then are you comfortable with saying that after an eternity of change we are where we are now?

While we are at it how does change happen when there is no beginning? If nothing started the process of change wouldn't everything just remain the same?

Quote: Evenbob

It makes perfect sense to me, but I
haven't been brainwashed. Do you
know in some parts of the world capitalism
is looked at as evil, and there is no way
of convincing them it's not. You think
capitalism is fine, you live it, you grew
up in it, you see it working.

I'm not brainwashed and see real problems with pure capitalism. Surely you don't think it is perfect. One of the ways you can see if someone is brainwashed is by if they never have anything negative to say about what they believe and nothing positive to say about their critics. Another way is if they never admit they are wrong or just stop talking about something if they are challenged. The use of ad hominem attacks happens a lot and always setting up straw men arguments from their opponents line of reasoning. They make assumption about what someone believes and they never go outside of certain sources or resources to find information about what other's believe. Take a long hard look in the mirror my friend.

Quote:

That the universe has been here forever
will never make sense to you, it can't
fit in your paradigm. It would destroy all
you believe in.

I have said to you now at least three times that much of the Church and some of its greatest theologians believed based on the available evidence that the universe was eternal and it fits fine into Scripture and arguments for the existence of God. Obviously the universe has movement in it, even you can't deny that, so this movement and change or evolution if you will had to start somewhere with a cause. So no it would not destroy all I believe in. Do you think admitting the universe has a cause will destroy all you believe in? Many prominent atheists are fine admitting the universe was created they just attribute it to a unknowable, all-powerful, impersonal, spiritual, eternal thing or force that may or may not even exist anymore.

Quote: FrGamble

One of the ways you can see if someone is brainwashed is by if they never have anything negative to say about what they believe and nothing positive to say about their critics.

I'd be very interested to hear all the negative things you have to say about Jehovah and Jesus.

Quote: FrGamble

What a great question.

"When someone says "great question," or "good question," you can be sure the answer will be neither great nor good." :)

Quote:

I would agree that once something is made or created it exists for ever or at least until God who alone can create or destroy does something.

When has any god every destroyed energy?

Quote:

Again I really think it is a good example of the painting that is destroyed, but not really destroyed, because it still exists as ash and energy expelled into the world.

No, it's really, really destroyed.

Think about it. When Leonardo painted La Gioconda, there was undoubtedly paint left over on his pallet. and since he didn't paint it in one sitting, we can also assume he discarded some paint between painting sessions. Is the paint that made it on the canvas more important or deserving than that which didn't? Of course not. It's how the paint is arranged on the canvas that matters. The information it conveys by the way it's organized. That's what's destroyed when you burn a canvas and frame to ash and gas.

A photograph of the painting is more like the original painting than the remains inside the oven. I'd argue even that the memories people have of the painting, even of those who've only seen it in photos, are more like the painting as well, for all that they are entirely abstract.

Quote: FrGamble

Why should we care if everything is just random chance with no reason behind it.

Because whatever we're dealing with exists
and we have to deal with it. We have to
live with it, we have to care about it. And
random chance doesn't 'cause' anything,
it's a result, not a cause.

Quote:

if the random processes of evolution have had literally forever to work on this eternal material stuff then are you comfortable with saying that after an eternity of change we are where we are now?

How much choice do we have, evolution is
evolution, live with it or don't. We're part
of the eternal evolution, part of the infinite.
What god religions do is make everything
finite, make every thought and action have
dire consequences to some god squatting
out there monitoring everything they do.

Quote: FrGamble

Do you think admitting the universe has a cause will destroy all you believe in?

The universe exists without a cause,
it just 'is'. As soon as you blame it
on a cause, you miss the point entirely.
Then it becomes looking for Waldo
in a picture where no Waldo is there
to find.

Quote: Evenbob

Because whatever we're dealing with exists
and we have to deal with it. We have to
live with it, we have to care about it.

Why do we have to do this?

Quote:

And random chance doesn't 'cause' anything,
it's a result, not a cause.

So what causes it to be random and why do you think it is? What makes this eternal matter that has no cause move and change?

Quote:

What god religions do is make everything
finite,

Why do you say this? I think religion makes everything eternal and significant with meaning. It points to a higher power that is eternal and not finite.

Quote:

make every thought and action have
dire consequences

Or glorious consequences depending on what you choose. Why do you want to make every thought and action meaningless as you want to make the entire universe meaningless and just some random reality we have to "deal with"?

Quote: Nareed

When has any god every destroyed energy?

I don't think so, but He sure as heck created it.

Quote:

No, it's really, really destroyed.

Think about it. When Leonardo painted La Gioconda, there was undoubtedly paint left over on his pallet. and since he didn't paint it in one sitting, we can also assume he discarded some paint between painting sessions. Is the paint that made it on the canvas more important or deserving than that which didn't? Of course not. It's how the paint is arranged on the canvas that matters. The information it conveys by the way it's organized. That's what's destroyed when you burn a canvas and frame to ash and gas.

A photograph of the painting is more like the original painting than the remains inside the oven. I'd argue even that the memories people have of the painting, even of those who've only seen it in photos, are more like the painting as well, for all that they are entirely abstract.

I agree with you here, which usually is a bad thing:)

Quote: FrGamble

I don't think so, but He sure as heck created it.

Some proof would be nice.

Quote:

I agree with you here, which usually is a bad thing:)

It's a terrible thing. It will break your streak of never being right :)