Original Sin?

This 'revealed' rather than claimed is an unprovable assertion. Those cult leaders who want to marry the youngest and prettiest girls never day "I want to marry you" they always say "I had a revelation that God wants us to be married". So it is more acceptable.

Well, casino tells me the die is true. I accept that for a variety of reasons. I have no test equipment and I know the penalities they would suffer if somebody from the Gaming Board walked in and tested that die. I would not call this a revelation and information has no great profound place in the universe.

Is there a clockmaker? Was there a clockmaker? Original sin? We don't hold infants liable so why endow them with some measure of sin.

Quote: FrGamble

Ummm...Santa is pretty much the most un-obvious answer. Think.

Santa is always used because it's
a belief most people have in common.
We believed in Santa once, not because
it made logical sense, it doesn't. It
was because all those around us believed,
especially our parents.

You only believe in a god because others
do. You have shown a hundred ways from
Sunday you can't prove a gods existence,
you go on faith. To an atheist there is no
god, it's a non starter. So to us it's obvious
the Church is a scam from top to bottom.

I'll talk you into believing as I do, in god, then
show you how you need me to be in charge
of your belief. The leader of my church has
a direct link to god, doncha know, and he
will guide us. I'll even wear a costume that
sets me apart from the crowd and you'll
know that I am one of that gods lieutenants.

To an atheist this is all meaningless nonsense.
My friend Ed the ex priest atheist now lives
with another atheist. He says they never discuss
it because what's to discuss. It would be like
talking about why they don't collect stamps.
It's a non subject.

Quote: Evenbob

You have shown a hundred ways from
Sunday you can't prove a gods existence,

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore the Universe has a cause.

Or we can talk about the fact that there is movement in the universe. We know that there needs to be a force that acts upon something to make it move. Therefore since we can't have an infinite regress we logically need to have an unmoved mover who by its nature contains movement in itself and requires nothing for it to move or cause other things to move. If you don't understand this read some Aristotle or Aquinas.

Since material things are obviously contingent, in that we don't have the reason for our existence in ourselves, any more than our computer, or the stick we see outside has its reason for being in itself. We and everything you see around you is contingent or dependent on something else. Again because of the impossibility of an actual infinite regress there needs to be a non-contingent being or an uncaused cause for everything to exist. I feel this is pretty plain to understand but feel free to try to deny it.

Quote:

you go on faith.

The above are pretty much unmistakable proofs that there is a God or spiritual, all-powerful force that created or began everything. However, since faith is making decisions not on proof but a preponderance of evidence that leads to a reasonable conclusion we can add more arguments here. For example the fine tuning of the universe; the positive impact Christianity has had on society, art, science, culture, law, government, philosophy, and charity; the universal conception of objective moral truths that span time and distance; and miracles.

Quote:

To an atheist there is no
god, it's a non starter.

Do you feel at least a little uncomfortable that you can do absolutely nothing of what I did above? You cannot give one rational, logical, or even faith based reason to hold to atheism. I understand there are a myriad of good emotional arguments based on what the teaching of some religion makes you feel, or how you have been treated by unfaithful people of a certain religion, the bad breaks that life sends our way and the question of why bad things happen to good people? These are all strong arguments and I don't begrudge anyone to hold them, but objectively and logically they are not sound.

You will no doubt poo-poo everything I have said above and write it off without even addressing any of it. I just want you to admit that it the theist who comes to this debate bringing argument and sound reasoning and the atheist who says nothing but shouting, "there is no go, it's a non starter." If it's a non-starter where do you hope to go from there. Why do you even bother thinking about these things if you know that as soon as you are willing to start thinking you will lose?

This is probably why Ed and his friend don't talk about atheism, because there is nothing to say. Anything of substance will cause an atheist to have to rethink his or her tenuous position and be forced to wrestle with the truth.

Quote: FrGamble

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

The universe has been here forever in
one form all another. So have we. So
will we always be. But that has no power
over people, so silly religions must be
invented so people can pretend they're
more important than they are. Ego is
everything, your fragile little ego must
live forever, please believe in Jesus.

Quote:

This is probably why Ed and his friend don't talk about atheism, because there is nothing to say..

There is as much to say about atheism
as there is about any other non subject.
Once you state that you don't believe
in gods, what's left to say. You move on.

Quote: Evenbob

The universe has been here forever in
one form all another. So have we. So
will we always be. But that has no power
over people, so silly religions must be
invented so people can pretend they're
more important than they are. Ego is
everything, you fragile little ego must
live forever, please believe in Jesus.




There is as much to say about atheism
as there is about any other non subject.
Once you state that you don't believe
in gods, what's left to say. You move on.

Hey evenbob. Please move on.

Quote: pew

Hey evenbob. Please move on.

Why are xtions always so threatened
by atheists, we certainly aren't
threatened by you.

Quote: Evenbob

The universe has been here forever in
one form all another. So have we. So
will we always be.

Quote: Evenbob

Ego is everything, your fragile little ego must
live forever, please believe in Jesus.

It sounds like according to you we don't have to believe in Jesus to life forever, we have been here forever and we always will be. So again your argument fails.

Here is another thing to think about - I've tried to ask this before in a million different ways, but it just doesn't seem to get through - where did the universe come from if it has been here forever? I know that sounds stupid, but since what you are positing goes against the prevailing thought of almost all scientific theory and observation not to mention logic I just want to make sure you own the fact that you believe that an eternally existing non-necessary moving contingent thing has no cause and no possible explanation for its existence and for its movement. Please answer yes or no if you hold as true the underlined idea?

Quote:

There is as much to say about atheism
as there is about any other non subject.
Once you state that you don't believe
in gods, what's left to say. You move on.

How about the reason why you don't believe in God? How about how you answer a theists objections to your belief? How about how you respond to a theists evidence and arguments? How about providing a logical argument as to why you feel safe to say that for sure there are no gods? There are a lot of things to talk about if you weren't so scared of the answers.

Atheism a threat...pulezzzzee. It is a failed emotional illogical philosophy with nothing to support it. I am much more threatened by indifference and the failure of people to engage in meaningful dialogue and discussion about metaphysics now a days. In fact the whole world is threatened by the shallowness of secularism.

Quote: FrGamble

where did the universe come from if it has been here forever?

Think about your question, see the flaw in it?

I did and said so in my post if you would read it?!?

See if you can see the flaw in this: a universe made of things that depend on something else for their existence does not depend on anything for its existence. Or how about this one: A universe that is in motion doesn't need to have anything cause its motion. Do you see any flaws here?

Quote: FrGamble

I did and said so in my post if you would read it?!?

Shown the tallest building in the world,
would you ask 'what building is taller.'.

That's just as ridiculous as asking
where did the universe come from.
It's always been here, it's obvious.